Another Piece of Evidence Linking John McInnes to the Bible John Murders

[rjpalmer]

If there was a bite mark on Helen Puttock's wrist then the question of overlapping teeth is presumably known by the police. If the police were confident in Jean Langford's impression of BJ then presumably that is partly due to the detail of overlapping front teeth corresponding to the forensics.

This is why I brought up Templeton's apparently straight teeth.

Barnflatwyngarde rightly questions whether this should be a 'deal breaker'--witness descriptions can be mistaken and sometimes with disastrous results--but according to Detective Chief Inspector Les Brown (Glasglow Crimefighter) at least one suspect was dropped because his teeth did not overlap.

The man had been involved in at least two different altercations at the Barrowland including one with a young woman, had given a false name and address to the police (twice), and looked very much like the police sketch of the suspect--but his teeth didn't overlap and that was apparently good enough for the lead investigator to drop him like a red-hot horseshoe.

I just find it curious that a senior policeman would be that confident about a witness description. That's not usually the case, so I, too, wonder about the bite mark.

[New Waterloo]

There is a recent BBC Documentary (NOT THE PODCAST) where Beatie is questioned regarding him carry a teeth mold in his pocket. He says no but I keep them here in my drawer and then takes them out and shows them to the camera and press. For a second or two if you start stop the recording you can just about see that the teeth are indeed crossed slightly at the front. Also that there is a gap where a tooth is missing on the left side. As far as I recall he says something which would suggest these are relevant to the case. Would need to go through it again. Its PART 2 of the documentary I think. This could be very important. Will have to hear what he says again.

NW

[Darryl Kenyon]

There is a recent BBC Documentary (NOT THE PODCAST) where Beatie is questioned regarding him carry a teeth mold in his pocket. He says no but I keep them here in my drawer and then takes them out and shows them to the camera and press. For a second or two if you start stop the recording you can just about see that the teeth are indeed crossed slightly at the front. Also that there is a gap where a tooth is missing on the left side. As far as I recall he says something which would suggest these are relevant to the case. Would need to go through it again. Its PART 2 of the documentary I think. This could be very important. Will have to hear what he says again.

NW

Yes NW I saw this . Makes me think that he was quietly confident that the mould was a good likeness for the killers teeth.

But if Beatie did rule people out because of their teeth it could be a mistake akin to George Oldfield etc ruling people out of the Yorkshire ripper enquiry because they did not have a Geordie/Wearside accent. Much as Sutcliffe was ruled out when Inspector Laptew voiced his concerns about him , only to be rebuffed by his commanding officer because Sutcliffe had a local accent.

Makes you wonder

Regards Darryl

[New Waterloo]

I think that's very true Darryl. So easy to go down a route and make everything fit your own theory. I do think however that the teeth mold is very significant. I think it confirms that there was a bite mark on Helens body. I cannot see any other reason for having a mold made. If it was made from witness descriptions it clearly would not be accurate. You know a millimeter here a millimeter there cross over wrong way round.. too much crossover etc.

It does seem to be that this teeth mold was made using the bite marks as reference. There appears to be a tooth missing from the back and this 'gap' can be seen on the film clip.

It doesn't prove the bite mark was made by the murderer. But we cant keep ignoring good evidence. It appears that somebody bit her a short while before her death and the police thought this bite mark was of some significance. So the mold was made.

Are we looking at an accurate reconstruction of Bible Johns teeth.

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Darryl, I am trying to pull together all the available info on the case and arrange it in a way that is logical and consistent.

The problem, as you are probably all too aware of, is that much of the available info is not properly identified with regard to its source and provenance.

Anyway, it will take me a while to do this, but with regard to where the taxi driver dropped Helen and the killer, he confirmed that he dropped them both off at Earl Street at about 1.00am.

The source I am quoting from says "The cab driver confirmed leaving the couple at an address in Earl Street at approximately 1:00 AM, with the red haired man paying the fare."
(Link to source below)

This may imply that the use of the phrase "red haired man" are the words of the taxi driver, therefore possibly confirming one important aspect of the man's appearance.
His sandy or red hair.

https://unresolved.me/bible-john

Hi Barn, you’ve probably got all of the books on the subject too but if there’s any info/quote etc that you want from any particular source let me know as I have these on Kindle:

Bible John’s Secret Daughter - David Leslie
Beyond The Tape - Dr. Maria Cassidy (she did the exhumation)
The Face Of Bible John -Steve MacGregor
Bible John On Trial - Nate Campbell
We All Go Into The Dark - Fransisco Garcia
The Lost British Serial Killer - David Wilson
Glasgow Crimefighter - Les Brown

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Barn, you’ve probably got all of the books on the subject too but if there’s any info/quote etc that you want from any particular source let me know as I have these on Kindle:

Bible John’s Secret Daughter - David Leslie
Beyond The Tape - Dr. Maria Cassidy (she did the exhumation)
The Face Of Bible John -Steve MacGregor
Bible John On Trial - Nate Campbell
We All Go Into The Dark - Fransisco Garcia
The Lost British Serial Killer - David Wilson
Glasgow Crimefighter - Les Brown

Thanks Herlock, that's kind of you.
I have all the books you have listed, with the exception of the Nate Campbell one.

Yesterday I had the idea of going through books written by Glasgow police officers who were active in the search for Bible John to see what they had to say about the case.
I haven't had the chance yet to pull together the info relevant they contain.

I have: The Real Taggarts - Andrew Ralston
Blood on the Streets - Robert Jeffrey
Glasgow's Hard Men - Robert Jeffrey

At first glance they don't seem to contain any striking new info, but if you want any of them just let me know.
I have also ordered the new book by Jillian Bavin-Mizzi on Amazon for £16.50.

Re the new suspect an ex colleague of mine said that according to his fellow library attendants, Templeton had one face for managers and another one for his colleagues.

Re the frustrations of this case, I posted earlier on this thread that the bite mark on Helen Puttock was on her thigh, because that's what my book source said.
Most of the reports of Helen's murder however say that the bite was on her wrist.

It's all very frustrating!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks Herlock, that's kind of you.
I have all the books you have listed, with the exception of the Nate Campbell one.

Yesterday I had the idea of going through books written by Glasgow police officers who were active in the search for Bible John to see what they had to say about the case.
I haven't had the chance yet to pull together the info relevant they contain.

I have: The Real Taggarts - Andrew Ralston
Blood on the Streets - Robert Jeffrey
Glasgow's Hard Men - Robert Jeffrey

At first glance they don't seem to contain any striking new info, but if you want any of them just let me know.
I have also ordered the new book by Jillian Bavin-Mizzi on Amazon for £16.50.

Re the new suspect an ex colleague of mine said that according to his fellow library attendants, Templeton had one face for managers and another one for his colleagues.

Re the frustrations of this case, I posted earlier on this thread that the bite mark on Helen Puttock was on her thigh, because that's what my book source said.
Most of the reports of Helen's murder however say that the bite was on her wrist.

It's all very frustrating!

Cheers Barn.

It wasn’t too long ago that I went back over the case but I might have a revisit over the next week or two (on holiday at the moment) I have the new one on order too.

There’s a lot of weeding out of rumours or sightings. We get X was seen by y and z but y and z are never named. That kind of stuff.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I just woke up to an email saying that Royal Mail had tried and failed to post the new Bible John book. I’ll have to mess around rearranging delivery when I get home a week today.

[rjpalmer]

I do think however that the teeth mold is very significant. I think it confirms that there was a bite mark on Helens body. I cannot see any other reason for having a mold made.

It was reported in the Glasgow papers that the police sent a photograph of the mold to every dentist in Glasgow, hoping the teeth would be recognized. I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that it was a genuine lead. Her friends and family would have known if she had a pre-existing bite, and the police could tell how fresh it was.

The question I would pose is whether McInnis was aware of this and had his teeth deliberately pulled, or whether it was a case of "damn, he had false teeth in his old age and now we can't check."

[rjpalmer]

In reference to the above, here’s a story that might give some insight into contemporary police thinking:


We are often victims of coincidence. But I’ve heard no stranger tale than the situation a colleague found himself in last week.

Mr. John Porter, former editor of the Scottish Catholic Observer, is now the Editor-in Chief of 40 weekly newspapers in Lincolnshire.

Last Monday Mr. Porter was visited by detectives investigating “the Biby John murder."

TEETH OUT

Said Mr. Porter: “They wanted to know if I’d had two teeth extracted at Glasgow Medical school not long after Mrs. Puttock was murdered. I confirmed that I had.”

Suddenly Mr. Porter realized that not only was his name John, but that he had been editor of a religious newspaper in Glasgow.

“I was horrified,” he told me. “Even though I had nothing on my conscience.”

A spokesman for Glasgow’s Marine Division police told me: “The man we are hunting for has a front tooth overlapping the other.”

“We have checked with every Glasgow dentist on about one thousand patients, trying to find a clue which would lead us to Bible John’s true identity.”

Mr. Porter has merely been the victim of a coincidence—however bizarre his story might be.

--Sunday Mail (Glasgow) 29 November 1970.

[barnflatwyngarde]

In reference to the above, here’s a story that might give some insight into contemporary police thinking:


We are often victims of coincidence. But I’ve heard no stranger tale than the situation a colleague found himself in last week.

Mr. John Porter, former editor of the Scottish Catholic Observer, is now the Editor-in Chief of 40 weekly newspapers in Lincolnshire.

Last Monday Mr. Porter was visited by detectives investigating “the Biby John murder."

TEETH OUT

Said Mr. Porter: “They wanted to know if I’d had two teeth extracted at Glasgow Medical school not long after Mrs. Puttock was murdered. I confirmed that I had.”

Suddenly Mr. Porter realized that not only was his name John, but that he had been editor of a religious newspaper in Glasgow.

“I was horrified,” he told me. “Even though I had nothing on my conscience.”

A spokesman for Glasgow’s Marine Division police told me: “The man we are hunting for has a front tooth overlapping the other.”

“We have checked with every Glasgow dentist on about one thousand patients, trying to find a clue which would lead us to Bible John’s true identity.”

Mr. Porter has merely been the victim of a coincidence—however bizarre his story might be.

--Sunday Mail (Glasgow) 29 November 1970.

Great find RJ.

I have been thinking about how we could take this fascinating case forward.

I've one idea that I've been bouncing around, but I'll wait until the new Bible John book by Jillian Bavin-Mizzi arrives next week and have a look at her sources.

Her previous book was very well researched with lots of sources listed.