Another Piece of Evidence Linking John McInnes to the Bible John Murders

[Herlock Sholmes]

I suppose that I asked for that Herlock!

There's a great scene in one of the Goons episodes where Eccles is invited in to a Highland cottage with the owner saying,
"Come away in and warm yourself round this big roaring candle."

I don’t know why I’m cracking ‘tight Scot’s’ jokes Barn. My Nan was Scottish and very generous.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Roger,

This could be a bit of a side-step of course. McInnes couldn’t be acquitted on the DNA evidence but that wouldn’t prevent someone looking for a possibly family member suspect. I’m suspicious. The book is due to arrive toward the end of July. I’m curious to find out how the author came to accuse this guy.

Hi Herlock, after a bit of digging on the internet, I found an article that says that the second DNA trawl relating to the Bible John murders
was indeed related to the earlier DNA testing of McInnes' body.

This is the tack being taken by Jillian Bavin-Mizzi in her new book

The relevant section is in bold below, and I attach a link to the article below.

John M in the article is John McInnes.

In December 2004, the hunt for Bible John came back into the headlines as the Sunday Mail reported that "DNA taken from [a person connected to a recent Glasgow] crime scene was ... an 80 percent match for that found on [Helen's clothing]."

The police have not released the name of the recent DNA source, probably not wanting to repeat the media circus that swarmed around John M.'s family several years earlier, although it does appear that the focus of the Bible John investigation is on the 2004 person's older male relatives.

In May 2005, the New York Daily News reported that Glasgow police are actively collecting DNA samples from that family and a police spokesperson had stated confidently that "science will solve these killings. We have no doubt of that."

https://www.crimelibrary.org/serial_killers/unsolved/bible_john/15.html

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, after a bit of digging on the internet, I found an article that says that the second DNA trawl relating to the Bible John murders
was indeed related to the earlier DNA testing of McInnes' body.

This is the tack being taken by Jillian Bavin-Mizzi in her new book

The relevant section is in bold below, and I attach a link to the article below.

John M in the article is John McInnes.

In December 2004, the hunt for Bible John came back into the headlines as the Sunday Mail reported that "DNA taken from [a person connected to a recent Glasgow] crime scene was ... an 80 percent match for that found on [Helen's clothing]."

The police have not released the name of the recent DNA source, probably not wanting to repeat the media circus that swarmed around John M.'s family several years earlier, although it does appear that the focus of the Bible John investigation is on the 2004 person's older male relatives.

In May 2005, the New York Daily News reported that Glasgow police are actively collecting DNA samples from that family and a police spokesperson had stated confidently that "science will solve these killings. We have no doubt of that."

https://www.crimelibrary.org/serial_killers/unsolved/bible_john/15.html

Thanks for this Barn. Unless my memory is at fault (very possible) I don’t recall this 2004 DNA trawl getting a mention in Audrey Gillian’s podcast which would seem strange. Also, “science will solve these killings…” sounds a bit hollow as here we are 18 years later with no headlines proclaiming ‘case solved.’

[New Waterloo]

I have been listening to Audrey Gillan's Podcast and I think it is very good and certainly stimulating. The problem with me is that I am not very methodical and find that I jump around a bit when trying to do a bit of research so bear with me.

I have noted a few things of interest. I think the 1996 team (cold case team) showed the witness Jean (Helens sister) a photograph of John McInnes and she said that something was not quite right and although there were similarities didn't think he was the man in the taxi. The photograph was obtained by the team from police criminal records. McInnes was arrested for some fraud offence. I wonder whether by the time of this later photograph he had had his teeth removed and had false teeth. Such a procedure along with a bit of age could perhaps have changed the shape of his face a bit. I will try and work out dates.

There is something about the taped interview of Jean (well words spoken by an actor) which doesnt seem quite right. Will have to have another listen.

Can we confirm that all of so called Bible Johns victims were menstruating at the time of their murders. This seems very strange and doesn't seem to be something that has been looked into. Maybe I have listened to that bit yet. Just cannot see how this would be known. Perhaps a coincidence. Really strange. Suspect mentioned working in a lab? Medical connection? Chemist assistant? Did the victims use the same chemist to buy sanitary towels. Sounds bit far fetched maybe.

I think as is suggested that McInnes is a good candidate for being the man in the taxi although Jean being able to remember eye colour seems somewhat remarkable. Maybe some people do but I don't think I would have remembered that. Yes if I was told to look at features I would do but in a night club, then a dark taxi for a while. His eyes must have been quite striking in colour.

Few thoughts to keep us going

NW

[barnflatwyngarde]

I have been listening to Audrey Gillan's Podcast and I think it is very good and certainly stimulating. The problem with me is that I am not very methodical and find that I jump around a bit when trying to do a bit of research so bear with me.

I have noted a few things of interest. I think the 1996 team (cold case team) showed the witness Jean (Helens sister) a photograph of John McInnes and she said that something was not quite right and although there were similarities didn't think he was the man in the taxi. The photograph was obtained by the team from police criminal records. McInnes was arrested for some fraud offence. I wonder whether by the time of this later photograph he had had his teeth removed and had false teeth. Such a procedure along with a bit of age could perhaps have changed the shape of his face a bit. I will try and work out dates.

There is something about the taped interview of Jean (well words spoken by an actor) which doesnt seem quite right. Will have to have another listen.

Can we confirm that all of so called Bible Johns victims were menstruating at the time of their murders. This seems very strange and doesn't seem to be something that has been looked into. Maybe I have listened to that bit yet. Just cannot see how this would be known. Perhaps a coincidence. Really strange. Suspect mentioned working in a lab? Medical connection? Chemist assistant? Did the victims use the same chemist to buy sanitary towels. Sounds bit far fetched maybe.

I think as is suggested that McInnes is a good candidate for being the man in the taxi although Jean being able to remember eye colour seems somewhat remarkable. Maybe some people do but I don't think I would have remembered that. Yes if I was told to look at features I would do but in a night club, then a dark taxi for a while. His eyes must have been quite striking in colour.

Few thoughts to keep us going

NW

Hi NW, I am listening to the BBC Bible John Podcast also, and like you I am finding it fascinating.

I have mentioned to Herlock, who also has an interest in this fascinating case, that one of the major frustrations of the case is that there are lots of "facts" about the case on the internet, and in the few books that there are on the case, but what is so obviously lacking are the sources for these "facts".

Statements about the case without sources being given, clearly cannot be taken as gospel.

The advantage that Audrey Gillan has in her podcast is that she is clearly quoting from police sources, and later on in the podcast we actually here the words of detectives who worked on the case

And sadly, there is no comprehensive book on the case with the intellectual rigor that a Paul Begg or a Philip Sugden would have given it.

Re how the killer would know that they were menstruating, apparently the sanitary towels used in the 60's were much bulkier than those used today, and were held in place by a "belt", that could be felt by a man dancing with the victims if his hand was positioned low down her back.

I am clearly no expert on this type of thing, but I have seen it referenced several times.
I am happy to be corrected if I have this wrong.

[cobalt]

I've always assumed that Bible John turned violent towards the women only when he discovered they were menstruating, not that he was seeking this as some kind of fetish. At the time it was thought that the women had refused his advances, perhaps citing their condition, and this had unleashed his fury.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I've always assumed that Bible John turned violent towards the women only when he discovered they were menstruating, not that he was seeking this as some kind of fetish. At the time it was thought that the women had refused his advances, perhaps citing their condition, and this had unleashed his fury.

Yeah cobalt, that was always my take on it, although it is a striking coincidence that all 3 victims were menstruating.

Having just listened to the Audrey Gillan podcast, I think that she says that the first victim, Patricia Docker was using a tampon, although I would have to double check this.

If that was in fact the case, it would give some weight to your observation.

[cobalt]

What we don't know is how often Bible John actually went to the Barrowland Ballroom. If he only went three times and ended up killing three women who were having their period then that would be a remarkable coincidence indeed.

More likely he went fairly regularly and his sexual advances were not repelled so abruptly. Not many women would have liked to come forward as witnesses in that event, and others might simply not have identified him as Bible John.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yeah cobalt, that was always my take on it, although it is a striking coincidence that all 3 victims were menstruating.

Having just listened to the Audrey Gillan podcast, I think that she says that the first victim, Patricia Docker was using a tampon, although I would have to double check this.

If that was in fact the case, it would give some weight to your observation.

She was using a sanitary towel Barn. It was found in the lane.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What we don't know is how often Bible John actually went to the Barrowland Ballroom. If he only went three times and ended up killing three women who were having their period then that would be a remarkable coincidence indeed.

More likely he went fairly regularly and his sexual advances were not repelled so abruptly. Not many women would have liked to come forward as witnesses in that event, and others might simply not have identified him as Bible John.

Good point Cobalt. Although the killer would always be taking a risk he did have an element of an insurance policy as you say. How many women were going to come forward to say “yes, I had sex with a bloke that looked like him last Saturday.” Whether they were married, attached or single, most lips would have been sealed.

[cobalt]

A photo fit of Bible John was being displayed in the Barrowland Ballroom the night that Helen Puttock, the third victim, was murdered. Which I mention as an indication of how people tend to think that such events cannot happen to them since they believe they are so careful when they go out with trusted friends and relatives.

Yet the iconic Bible John portrait we all recognise, the one Helen Puttock's sister helped create and which she was satisfied with, was not so far removed from the e-fit that was being emblazoned in the Barrowland Ballroom the night her sister was murdered. In my experience a woman's visual sense is sharper than a man's, hence the detail of eye colour recorded by Helen's sister which may well be accurate. Women look closely at a man's eyes to read his mood. Yet both women were blind to the similarity between the photo fit (which I suspect they barely glanced at) and the man who was in their company for maybe a couple of hours, because he seemed to be respectable.

What Bible John thought of the photo fit is hard to understand, but if it had been brought to his attention he may have shrugged it off as the kind of nonsense that dens of iniquity produced.

[barnflatwyngarde]

She was using a sanitary towel Barn. It was found in the lane.

Thanks for this Herlock, I definitely remember hearing mention of a tampon being found, but I was on a very bouncy bus heading into Glasgow, and wasn't taking notes.
I'll finish the podcast tomorrow, then listen to it again, this time taking notes.

[New Waterloo]

I think Herlock make probably the most important observation of them all when he reminds us that the man Helen is with at the club is seen by so many. He is dancing with Helen according to Jean, which is probably the most public thing you can do on a night out and as Herlock says there is the business at the cigarette machine where he has a face to face confrontation with the manager of the club (according to Jean).

It just doesn't seem to add up if the man (I will just call him that) is intending to kill a relatively short time later.

The only explanation really I suppose is that the man either does not have that on his mind at that time or for whatever reason, mental illness, personality disorder, substance use, he has become irrational.

There seems to be evidence that McInnes was becoming somewhat irrational and troubled in his life so maybe he is a good candidate for being the person in the taxi and possibly the murderer.

What we know for certain (according to Jean) is that this man displaying seemingly outward confident behavior (dancing, confronting the manager) is the man who gets in the taxi. So I think it would be reasonable to say that the man who gets in the taxi and quotes something from the bible has those personal characteristics.

I know this is obvious stuff but what this tells us that taxi man was not a shy, withdrawn person. This could be useful. I think

Barnflatwyngarde apparently knew this person John Templeton or certainly remembers him and describes him as quiet. I wonder if Barnflat can remember anything at all about Templetons character. If he was the sort of person not to go to Barrowlands well that would seem to rule him out a bit and a real contribution to progressing this.

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for this Herlock, I definitely remember hearing mention of a tampon being found, but I was on a very bouncy bus heading into Glasgow, and wasn't taking notes.
I'll finish the podcast tomorrow, then listen to it again, this time taking notes.

I took notes to but thanks to the mysteries of tech (or my own stupidity) some have disappeared. I’ll have another listen at some point.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think Herlock make probably the most important observation of them all when he reminds us that the man Helen is with at the club is seen by so many. He is dancing with Helen according to Jean, which is probably the most public thing you can do on a night out and as Herlock says there is the business at the cigarette machine where he has a face to face confrontation with the manager of the club (according to Jean).

It just doesn't seem to add up if the man (I will just call him that) is intending to kill a relatively short time later.

The only explanation really I suppose is that the man either does not have that on his mind at that time or for whatever reason, mental illness, personality disorder, substance use, he has become irrational.

There seems to be evidence that McInnes was becoming somewhat irrational and troubled in his life so maybe he is a good candidate for being the person in the taxi and possibly the murderer.

What we know for certain (according to Jean) is that this man displaying seemingly outward confident behavior (dancing, confronting the manager) is the man who gets in the taxi. So I think it would be reasonable to say that the man who gets in the taxi and quotes something from the bible has those personal characteristics.

I know this is obvious stuff but what this tells us that taxi man was not a shy, withdrawn person. This could be useful. I think

Barnflatwyngarde apparently knew this person John Templeton or certainly remembers him and describes him as quiet. I wonder if Barnflat can remember anything at all about Templetons character. If he was the sort of person not to go to Barrowlands well that would seem to rule him out a bit and a real contribution to progressing this.

NW

Hi NW, Templeton worked in various libraries in Glasgow as an attendant.

My recollection of him is of a well turned out, polite guy. He was about 5'10", and slim to medium build.

As you can appreciate, this revelation has generated a lot of discussion by library staff who knew him or worked with him.

My old boss has said that his nickname among the Mitchell Library attendants was Bible John, I don't know why but I will contact my old boss and find out.
This may be simply due to his name being the same as the one the man in the taxi gave to Hellen Puttock and her sister Jean.

My friends sister worked with him for a while and she described him as a bit creepy, but I don't know why she felt that way, I will ask my friend for more clarification on this point.

When I clarify these two points, I will post them here.