Did the Right Man Hang

[Herlock Sholmes]

12:03pm for 27 minutes - a 6 part series.

Cheers Eten, I only just spotted this post.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm intrigued Hats off to Eten for pointing this one out.

I've read all that I can see about the case online but there's not much more than was mentioned in the podcast.

Apparently Maurice Cregan claims that he's established that Minnie was killed as the result of an abortion gone wrong. That she died as a result of chloroform being administered and her body was taken to The Birches where her throat was cut. He also claims to have been intimidated by senior members of The Orange Order and the Freemasons to keep quite because Courtenay's family was well connected and there was an attempt to protect the family name and the names of the Doctor and Nurse that performed the abortion (names that Cregan knows but won't disclose) It's also claimed that a vagrant was hanged in his place and Courtenay fled to Australia.

Courtenay lied about knowing Minnie Reid and that he corresponded with her. He also said that he was in Armagh on April 27th. The jury at the first trial couldn't come to a verdict but the jury at the second did after a letter from Courtenay was found under Reid's pillow in which he'd arranged to meet her on the 26th. A man called Richard McKinley saw Courtenay on a bus when he claimed to be in Armagh at the time. Also witnesses testified to a relationship between Courtenay and Reid. Apparently Courtenay said of Reid "She was a fool all the days I knew her." As he was engaged at the time he doesn't come out of this looking good. The Jury recommended clemency but the Judge refused. A petition for appeal failed too.

The Defence claimed suicide which seems strange given the circumstances of her death. The Prosecution said that Courtenay hired a car in Dungannon at 8pm on the night of the murder, drove over to kill Reid then was back in Dungannon for 10.15.

It doesn't look good for Courtenay.

When her body was found there was a glove stuffed into the throat wound and the knife was found 14 yards away. So could this have been an unplanned murder done in anger and might the glove have been the killers attempt to staunch the flow of blood? Then when she died he slung the knife away in panic? Courtenay's the obvious candidate but did she have another admirer? Or a violent family member who thought that she'd brought shame on them by getting pregnant out of wedlock? Why would they wait until she was 8 months pregnant before seeking an abortion? If a vagrant was hanged in Courtenay's place why didn't he talk and wouldn't someone have listened? Pierrepoint never mentioned anything as far as I know.

I'm looking forward to part 2.

[etenguy]

I'm intrigued Hats off to Eten for pointing this one out.

I've read all that I can see about the case online but there's not much more than was mentioned in the podcast.

Apparently Maurice Cregan claims that he's established that Minnie was killed as the result of an abortion gone wrong. That she died as a result of chloroform being administered and her body was taken to The Birches where her throat was cut. He also claims to have been intimidated by senior members of The Orange Order and the Freemasons to keep quite because Courtenay's family was well connected and there was an attempt to protect the family name and the names of the Doctor and Nurse that performed the abortion (names that Cregan knows but won't disclose) It's also claimed that a vagrant was hanged in his place and Courtenay fled to Australia.

Courtenay lied about knowing Minnie Reid and that he corresponded with her. He also said that he was in Armagh on April 27th. The jury at the first trial couldn't come to a verdict but the jury at the second did after a letter from Courtenay was found under Reid's pillow in which he'd arranged to meet her on the 26th. A man called Richard McKinley saw Courtenay on a bus when he claimed to be in Armagh at the time. Also witnesses testified to a relationship between Courtenay and Reid. Apparently Courtenay said of Reid "She was a fool all the days I knew her." As he was engaged at the time he doesn't come out of this looking good. The Jury recommended clemency but the Judge refused. A petition for appeal failed too.

The Defence claimed suicide which seems strange given the circumstances of her death. The Prosecution said that Courtenay hired a car in Dungannon at 8pm on the night of the murder, drove over to kill Reid then was back in Dungannon for 10.15.

It doesn't look good for Courtenay.

When her body was found there was a glove stuffed into the throat wound and the knife was found 14 yards away. So could this have been an unplanned murder done in anger and might the glove have been the killers attempt to staunch the flow of blood? Then when she died he slung the knife away in panic? Courtenay's the obvious candidate but did she have another admirer? Or a violent family member who thought that she'd brought shame on them by getting pregnant out of wedlock? Why would they wait until she was 8 months pregnant before seeking an abortion? If a vagrant was hanged in Courtenay's place why didn't he talk and wouldn't someone have listened? Pierrepoint never mentioned anything as far as I know.

I'm looking forward to part 2.

Nice summary, Herlock.

Episodes 2 to 4 are available as podcasts now, but of course if one rushes through them, there is still a wait for episodes 5 and 6 which the producer says are still being recorded.

Not sure about the abortion gone wrong suggestion - 8 months is very late and besides there were long standing arrangements in place in Ireland for dealing with unfortunate pregnancies that could easily have been used.

Good to hear the Freemasons are again in the frame for a conspiracy theory.

The other interesting aspect of this series is the insight into 1930s Ireland and the troubles. Definitely looking forward to the next episode too.

[GUT]

Thomson’s is a great guy unless he has a Red missile in hand, and preferably a POM to aim it at. He listed for Pommie blood on the wicket.

I remember headlines in the 70’s

Ashes to Ashes
Dust to dust
If Thomson’s don’t get ya
Lillie, he must.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've never been to Oz but a mate of mine went over many years ago to watch cricket. He loved the place but I remember him saying that he couldn't make his mind up who to feel more sorry for? Him having to cope with the spiders or the England batsmen having to cope with Killer and Thommo

That should read Lillee and Thommo of course. Bloody text!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nice summary, Herlock.

Episodes 2 to 4 are available as podcasts now, but of course if one rushes through them, there is still a wait for episodes 5 and 6 which the producer says are still being recorded.

Not sure about the abortion gone wrong suggestion - 8 months is very late and besides there were long standing arrangements in place in Ireland for dealing with unfortunate pregnancies that could easily have been used.

Good to hear the Freemasons are again in the frame for a conspiracy theory.

The other interesting aspect of this series is the insight into 1930s Ireland and the troubles. Definitely looking forward to the next episode too.

8 months is certainly leaving it late. A conspiracy's not really a conspiracy without the Freemasons. That said, some kind of cover up isn't impossible. It's difficult to see how someone could get a man hanged in someone's place though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thomson’s is a great guy unless he has a Red missile in hand, and preferably a POM to aim it at. He listed for Pommie blood on the wicket.

I remember headlines in the 70’s

Ashes to Ashes
Dust to dust
If Thomson’s don’t get ya
Lillie, he must.

My favourite story is of when he bowled a short one to Tony Greig. The slip fielders turned around to see the ball half-volley the site screen. On a long boundary!

[Observer]

Thomson’s is a great guy unless he has a Red missile in hand, and preferably a POM to aim it at. He listed for Pommie blood on the wicket.

I remember headlines in the 70’s

Ashes to Ashes
Dust to dust
If Thomson’s don’t get ya
Lillie, he must.

Australian Board of Control to MCC, January 18, 1933:
Bodyline bowling assumed such proportions as to menace best interests of game, making protection of body by batsmen the main consideration. Causing intensely bitter feeling between players, as well as injury. In our opinion is unsportsmanlike. Unless stopped at once likely to upset friendly relations between Australia and England

Whinging Aussie Marys. Unlike hard man Brian Close, no helmet, no arm pads, rolled up sleeves, battered to hell, but not a single complaint.

[GUT]

8 months is certainly leaving it late. A conspiracy's not really a conspiracy without the Freemasons. That said, some kind of cover up isn't impossible. It's difficult to see how someone could get a man hanged in someone's place though.

There is a theory that Ned Kelly wasn’t hung, but his brother instead.

[GUT]

Thommo never really matured as a bowler, Dennis the Menace on the other hand, broke some bones in his back and had to bowl smart not fast, and was just as effective.

[GUT]

Australian Board of Control to MCC, January 18, 1933:
Bodyline bowling assumed such proportions as to menace best interests of game, making protection of body by batsmen the main consideration. Causing intensely bitter feeling between players, as well as injury. In our opinion is unsportsmanlike. Unless stopped at once likely to upset friendly relations between Australia and England

Whinging Aussie Marys. Unlike hard man Brian Close, no helmet, no arm pads, rolled up sleeves, battered to hell, but not a single complaint.

Hey the Poms started it with body line but then weren’t real happy when the deadly duo gave it back.

[Observer]

Hey the Poms started it with body line but then weren’t real happy when the deadly duo gave it back.

Hey, there were no complaints from the English batsmen, we didn't threaten you Aussies with diplomatic cessation. To be fair bodyline had become the norm by the time of Thompson, Lillie, Holden, Garner, Marshal and all the rest of them

[OneRound]

8 months is certainly leaving it late. A conspiracy's not really a conspiracy without the Freemasons. That said, some kind of cover up isn't impossible. It's difficult to see how someone could get a man hanged in someone's place though.

Hi Herlock - I've now listened to the first two episodes. I like the calm nature of the production and the clear commentary that goes with it but am a long way from being convinced there's any substance to claims of Courtney's innocence and/or him having escaped the noose. So far all we've been served up are hearsay evidence and random opinions. I'll stick with it in the hope that something more will materialise.

Best regards,
OneRound

PS Probably bad taste on my part admittedly but I did smile at the dark humour in the opening episode where leading hangman Tom Pierrepoint being assisted in the execution by his nephew Albert was referred to as a ''bring your family to work day''.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock - I've now listened to the first two episodes. I like the calm nature of the production and the clear commentary that goes with it but am a long way from being convinced there's any substance to claims of Courtney's innocence and/or him having escaped the noose. So far all we've been served up are hearsay evidence and random opinions. I'll stick with it in the hope that something more will materialise.

Best regards,
OneRound

PS Probably bad taste on my part admittedly but I did smile at the dark humour in the opening episode where leading hangman Tom Pierrepoint being assisted in the execution by his nephew Albert was referred to as a ''bring your family to work day''.

Cheers OneRound

I've just listened through to episode four. I know what you mean about substance when you're dealing with anonymous sources and unverifiable statements. I won't spoil it for anyone by mentioning the contents of the episodes but I'm more willing to consider the abortion scenario than the suggestion that someone hanged in Courtenay's place.

They discuss the medical evidence with a Professor Jack Crane but I'm surprised that they haven't raised the issue of the glove being pushed into the throat wound. Actually it hasn't been mentioned. Why not?

It's an interesting programme though and I'm looking forward to #5.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

PS Probably bad taste on my part admittedly but I did smile at the dark humour in the opening episode where leading hangman Tom Pierrepoint being assisted in the execution by his nephew Albert was referred to as a ''bring your family to work day''.

A fair point though. The Billingtons were the first 'family' executioners, later followed by Henry, Tom and Albert Pierrepoint.

I haven't got into this case, but with regards to the vagrant being hung as a substitute, the historical dangers facing the Pierrepoints when hanging in Ireland must be worth considering.