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The Murder of Julia Wallace (1931) - Full DPP case files

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  • #76
    I don’t think that Constable Serjeant actually advised Wallace to look at a directory. I think Wallace actually asked him where he could see one and Serjeant mentioned that he could try the Police Station or the PO. Serjeant told Wallace categorically that there was no MGE confirming what he’d already been told and yet Wallace persisted in his search. Let’s face it, who is more likely to know the streets than a policeman on the beat. Wallace, at the end of his search, said that he’d started to become concerned. Why only then and not when he’d been told 3 times that MGE didn’t exist?

    We’re never going to agree on the issue of Wallace avoiding the Parlour but I’d say that if someone is searching they would look in the order of the locations that they came too. Wallace saw that the cupboard door was ripped of so all hope of an innocent explanation would have vanished. I just can’t believe that a man, desperately concerned about his wife’s safety, would have reached the kitchen door with the Parlour door within reach and then made a decision based upon percentages regarding which rooms were used the most. It just doesn’t make sense. I’m convinced that a guilty Wallace deliberately left the Parlour until last.
    Regards

    Herlock




    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      I don’t think that Constable Serjeant actually advised Wallace to look at a directory. I think Wallace actually asked him where he could see one and Serjeant mentioned that he could try the Police Station or the PO. Serjeant told Wallace categorically that there was no MGE confirming what he’d already been told and yet Wallace persisted in his search. Let’s face it, who is more likely to know the streets than a policeman on the beat. Wallace, at the end of his search, said that he’d started to become concerned. Why only then and not when he’d been told 3 times that MGE didn’t exist?

      We’re never going to agree on the issue of Wallace avoiding the Parlour but I’d say that if someone is searching they would look in the order of the locations that they came too. Wallace saw that the cupboard door was ripped of so all hope of an innocent explanation would have vanished. I just can’t believe that a man, desperately concerned about his wife’s safety, would have reached the kitchen door with the Parlour door within reach and then made a decision based upon percentages regarding which rooms were used the most. It just doesn’t make sense. I’m convinced that a guilty Wallace deliberately left the Parlour until last.
      Yes what happened is the officer advised trying 25 Menlove Avenue, then Wallace asked the policeman if he knew where he might find a directory. He benefits in absolutely no way at all by NOT going to 25 Menlove Avenue, so this absolutely should not be considered indicative of guilt. Moreso the opposite, since going to Menlove Avenue would help him stay out longer which apparently is what people think his goal was.

      It's important to note he's not desperately concerned about his wife's safety. If you imagine this is you in this situation, are you really going to rush home and kick the door in like "JULIA WHAT'S HAPPENED?!" like, it wouldn't be natural to legitimately assume she's been beaten to death or even in grave danger. A sense of uncertainty would be expected, not panic. When he arrived home he was considering what might be happening, maybe she's gone to the post box, etc. That's precisely what I would expect, someone in that situation would come up with innocent explanations for what's happening.

      That cupboard door was already broken and had been shoddily repaired as I recall? It's completely natural that you would assume the same thing had happened again.

      If he had gone straight for the parlour I'd say he KNEW she was in there. A sick wife is going to be in bed if anywhere, I think we can agree that if this was a totally normal day, and you arrived home with your fully alive sick wife somewhere in the house, and especially if it's relatively late, you would assume she's in bed. Right? I mean he's not playing hide and seek with her.

      If he's guilty I 100% certainly think he went upstairs simply to try to give the impression he's innocent (because an innocent man would definitely go to the bedroom - and going to the parlour first would suggest advanced knowledge)... Or alternatively he is legitimately innocent and not trying to give any impression... Alternative explanations for the behaviour don't make sense... Just play-acting innocence to hide guilt, or actual innocence.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

        The fact he didn't go to Menlove Avenue is in favour of his innocence, not guilt... Cui bono, who benefits? What does he gain from NOT going there and returning home instead? The only thing he gains by not checking that address, is that people can use it against him. There is absolutely no benefit for him.

        Think of it from his perspective if he's an innocent man:

        He went to the officer who told him to see a directory. He goes to the directory and sees a person of that name does not live in the area, nor is there a Menlove Gardens East.

        Wolverton Street had been burgled only one month earlier and here is a man who is beginning to become just a touch anxious (upon seeing there is no person with such a name) that his home may have been burgled.

        This is more consistent with his actions.

        ---

        Btw about the bad place to be knocking about thing: Perhaps the area was nice, but a skeleton key housebreaking gang was operating in that area at the time. I think a group had just been arrested recently for breaking into one of the Menlove Gardens homes... So perhaps the area was nice, but the people who came there from elsewhere to do no good were not so nice.

        Or a simple error.
        I do believe Wallace guilty, though I also believe I possess the mind set of one who is capable of taking in the facts (as much as we know of them) and using common sense to decide ‘why a person does or doesn’t act in a particular way in a particular situation. I am not claiming Wallace’s guilt because he neglected to call at 25 Menlove avenue , even though he was advised to by others ,to do so. I’m simply pointing out , virtually passing that address when he is on the other side of town on a cold winters night, is odd.
        While on the subject. It’s claimed he didn’t need to bother with the Menlove Gardens addresses that were even numbered , (no number 25s.) Isn’t it odd that since he had been given a message second hand, (by someone for all he knew may have been relating a message second hand) He didn’t think to knock on numbers 24 or 26 of those streets? Just in case the number related was in error. Incidentally ,a directory will only give the householder, not a visitor , lodger , brother-in-law,etc. Just saying.
        On the Allerton break ins . Your saying a club member had read about an incident in Allerton,with reference to a burglary , so warned Wallace about going there? Ha Ha that’s funny.
        Anyhow keep up the good archival searching WWH. Awesome stuff.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

          Yes what happened is the officer advised trying 25 Menlove Avenue, then Wallace asked the policeman if he knew where he might find a directory. He benefits in absolutely no way at all by NOT going to 25 Menlove Avenue, so this absolutely should not be considered indicative of guilt. Moreso the opposite, since going to Menlove Avenue would help him stay out longer which apparently is what people think his goal was.

          It's important to note he's not desperately concerned about his wife's safety. If you imagine this is you in this situation, are you really going to rush home and kick the door in like "JULIA WHAT'S HAPPENED?!" like, it wouldn't be natural to legitimately assume she's been beaten to death or even in grave danger. A sense of uncertainty would be expected, not panic. When he arrived home he was considering what might be happening, maybe she's gone to the post box, etc. That's precisely what I would expect, someone in that situation would come up with innocent explanations for what's happening.

          That cupboard door was already broken and had been shoddily repaired as I recall? It's completely natural that you would assume the same thing had happened again.

          If he had gone straight for the parlour I'd say he KNEW she was in there. A sick wife is going to be in bed if anywhere, I think we can agree that if this was a totally normal day, and you arrived home with your fully alive sick wife somewhere in the house, and especially if it's relatively late, you would assume she's in bed. Right? I mean he's not playing hide and seek with her.

          If he's guilty I 100% certainly think he went upstairs simply to try to give the impression he's innocent (because an innocent man would definitely go to the bedroom - and going to the parlour first would suggest advanced knowledge)... Or alternatively he is legitimately innocent and not trying to give any impression... Alternative explanations for the behaviour don't make sense... Just play-acting innocence to hide guilt, or actual innocence.
          Wallace knew that the address was Menlove Gardens and not Menlove Avenue. Beattie had written it down and Wallace heard him relay the message. He’s had Sidney Green tell him that there was no such place as MGE. Then even more conclusively Constable Serjeant tells him there’s no such place. Wallace still isn’t satisfied. It’s off to the PO then the newsagents where Lily Pinches becomes the third person to tell him that MGE doesn’t exist. At the very least this is remarkable persistence.

          How concerned about his wife’s safety is Wallace? Well as soon as he sees the Johnston’s he asks: “Have you heard any suspicious noises in my house during the last hour or so?” This doesn’t appear to be someone thinking that his wife might be ill. He can’t get in - this has never happened before. No one is responding. He finally gets inside to find the lights off and the house in silence. Then he goes into the kitchen: “I walked in by the back kitchen door. I found the kitchen light out. I lit it and found signs of a disturbance in the kitchen. A wooden case in which I kept photographic stuff in had been broken open and the lid was on the floor.” All innocent explanations have vanished by now. Now I’ll say what you said in your post. Put yourself in Wallace’s position. He’s at the door from the kitchen to the hallway, believing that something untoward had happened to his wife. She’s not in the back kitchen or the kitchen. The Parlour door is within reach. Two seconds and he either finds his wife or eliminates that room. Why on earth would he go upstairs first? Rod used to stress the fact that the Parlour was only used for special occasions. For visitors yes. But Julia’s piano was in there. There was a sideboard containing items that she might have wanted to get. It wasn’t a rarely used shrine.

          Going into the Parlour after leaving the kitchen would have been the natural, obvious thing to have done. I’d say that 999 out of a 1000 in that situation would have checked the Parlour first. By ignoring the obvious next place Wallace looks like a man who wanted to leave the Parlour until last. A man with an plan.
          Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 01-20-2020, 07:43 PM.
          Regards

          Herlock




          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

          Comment


          • #80
            I think it's the opposite, and in fact when arguing for his guilt I say he went upstairs to pretend he didn't already know his wife was dead in the parlour.

            I really wouldn't draw conclusions from that. It's weak evidence. It's advanced knowledge that I think would be a stronger clue... For example, when I first read about this case I didn't realize he called "Julia?" when he went into the house. Something like that would show advanced knowledge that he shouldn't have... Basically anything that shows he knows exactly what he's going to find in there before he even gets in there.

            If he did go upstairs I'm not entirely sure what this accomplishes for him unless he's trying to put on a facade of innocence (like "see, I didn't even know she was in the parlour!").

            The only real possibility is checking rooms he'd used after killing Julia. It does appear, though, that the upstairs was not used by the killer... The bath hadn't been used recently, the toilet and sink basin came back clean (even though there was that small clot in the toilet so hmm), the towel was dry, the nail brush was free from blood... If he changed upstairs in the bedroom after killing her it's quite possible, but I'd expect someone relying on speed and a squeaky clean crime scene to have the outfit downstairs ready to go... Plus changing clothes etc. is starting to add time on to how long it will take him to leave the house after the killing which must be factored in.

            Comment


            • #81
              Quote: If he did go upstairs I'm not entirely sure what this accomplishes for him unless he's trying to put on a facade of innocence (like "see, I didn't even know she was in the parlour!").

              If he went upstairs? I thought the Johnstones knew he had ,from hearing his clambering up there, and didn’t they see the light come on?
              A facade of innocence, yes, precisely the object of his exercise I would assume.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by moste View Post
                Quote: If he did go upstairs I'm not entirely sure what this accomplishes for him unless he's trying to put on a facade of innocence (like "see, I didn't even know she was in the parlour!").

                If he went upstairs? I thought the Johnstones knew he had ,from hearing his clambering up there, and didn’t they see the light come on?
                A facade of innocence, yes, precisely the object of his exercise I would assume.
                Yes they did. I was going to write that if it wasn't for them seeing the lights going on upstairs, I'd think perhaps he wasn't really up there and just wanted to give himself time to do stuff downstairs (downstairs being where things really mattered). But due to the lights, I guess he really was upstairs...

                We are of the same mind in regards to the avoidance of the parlour: Either faking innocence, or real innocence.

                Going in there first is unnatural. I think that probably if Wallace had gone in there first the same people who think he should have, would argue: "How did he know to check the parlour first?" which is what I would think too. Unless you KNEW she was dead in there, it's the last place you'd expect her to be except for maybe the lab.

                Comment


                • #83
                  On the train now. New case files coming soon. Watch this space.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    I’m genuinely baffled that you think that going into the Parlour first would have been unnatural. If your searching for a wife in danger as Wallace was you’d simply search the rooms in the order that he came to them. Finding her a minute or so earlier might in theory have made a difference had she still been alive. They couldn’t have asked why he went in their first because a) he didn’t go in there first as he’d already been in two rooms, and b) he could actual touch the door from where he’d stood. This is confirmed as it was a point raised at the time as something suspicious.

                    I think that he avoided the Parlour for a reason. We just don’t know that reason. We can make suggestions though
                    • He wanted to check that he hadn’t made any mistakes or left any clues.
                    • He had to take something upstairs (I’ve suggested previously that he might have used a chemical to clean up and left the bottle on the kitchen which he noticed when he got back. Maybe he’d already remembered that he’d left it out and this is why he didn’t ask Johnston to come inside with him? Wallace doesn’t strike us as the heroic type and yet according to him at the time he’d suspected that there was someone in the house so why did he go in alone?)
                    • Maybe as he got to the door he felt himself start to panic and so he wanted a bit of time to try and compose himself? Maybe a few drags on a cigarette?
                    • Maybe when he’d left the house the front room was in order but on the way back he’d had the idea of making a bit of a mess up there to muddy the waters and leave the police believing that the killer had gone upstairs?
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                      On the train now. New case files coming soon. Watch this space.
                      Have a good day WWH

                      Regards

                      Herlock




                      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                        I’m genuinely baffled that you think that going into the Parlour first would have been unnatural. If your searching for a wife in danger as Wallace was you’d simply search the rooms in the order that he came to them. Finding her a minute or so earlier might in theory have made a difference had she still been alive. They couldn’t have asked why he went in their first because a) he didn’t go in there first as he’d already been in two rooms, and b) he could actual touch the door from where he’d stood. This is confirmed as it was a point raised at the time as something suspicious.

                        I think that he avoided the Parlour for a reason. We just don’t know that reason. We can make suggestions though
                        • He wanted to check that he hadn’t made any mistakes or left any clues.
                        • He had to take something upstairs (I’ve suggested previously that he might have used a chemical to clean up and left the bottle on the kitchen which he noticed when he got back. Maybe he’d already remembered that he’d left it out and this is why he didn’t ask Johnston to come inside with him? Wallace doesn’t strike us as the heroic type and yet according to him at the time he’d suspected that there was someone in the house so why did he go in alone?)
                        • Maybe as he got to the door he felt himself start to panic and so he wanted a bit of time to try and compose himself? Maybe a few drags on a cigarette?
                        • Maybe when he’d left the house the front room was in order but on the way back he’d had the idea of making a bit of a mess up there to muddy the waters and leave the police believing that the killer had gone upstairs?
                        Actually they could have questioned why he beelined straight to the parlour first because he HAD to go into the other two rooms mentioned, since going through them is the only way to get to the parlour.

                        Exactly as you said, it might make sense if he was searching for a wife IN DANGER. But he didn't know she was in danger. Remember at this stage, he's unsure of what's happening, second guessing himself, suggesting innocent explanations etc.

                        If he knew she was in danger that also would be the assumption needed to support the other point of the prosecution that he didn't bash hard on the door when knocking etc.

                        Knocking lightly, however, is again a very strong pointer at innocence. What does a man gain from lightly knocking on a door when his objective is apparently to be noticed by neighbours? What exactly is the point of knocking and nobody at all hearing it or knowing you're doing it except yourself. There is absolutely no gain to himself, and it's by chance the Johnstons heard his knock at all... I seem to recall he might have called Julia's name at the door though? My memory is just SO bad though, hence it's a good job I'm photographing everything I see lol, so I need some confirmation on that.

                        As to your suggestions I agree creating disorder upstairs is a reason to go up there.

                        Checking he hadn't left clues implies he'd been up there around the commission of the murder, which I'm not sure any killer did. There is the possibility, but in any scenario relying on speed, the less he does before leaving the better. Certainly using chemical cleaners would add considerable time - in fact I think something like that would add more time than he had.

                        The Johnstons said they would stay outside anyway, Wallace didn't ask them to wait. There is some back and forth on that point but Gannon seems to think it was indeed the Johnstons who said they'd wait.

                        Essentially the whole parlour thing is not good evidence as there is clear duality. I am not the only person who does not see it as good evidence.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          As a little preview 'cause I found this amusing, I have the list of books Wallace requested he be sent at prison:

                          Mans Place in the Universe
                          Natural History of Selborne
                          The Carolinian
                          Microscopy in the Service of Man
                          Astronomy (Arthur R Hinks)
                          Ether and Reality
                          Chess Sacrifices and Traps
                          Modern Chess Strategy (Daily Express Series)
                          Fabres Book of Insects
                          The Mysterious Universe
                          The Stars in their Courses
                          Essays of a Biologist
                          Some Diversions of a Naturalist
                          The Universe around us (Sir Jas Jeans)

                          Speak to you all later!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Omfg I have the FULLLLLLLL trial. IT'S HUGEEEEEEEE. It's like 3 War and Peaces stacked on top of each other.

                            I literally might have to come back a few times just to photograph all this. You guys have no idea I've never seen a document this thick in my entire life LOL. It's so thick it rises above the dividing board things at the side of the reading table.

                            This has AT LEAST 5x more testimony than Wyndham Brown's text. AT LEAST. I've flicked through some and there's SO MUCH new testimony. Merry mega-early Christmas everyone. This case has just been blown open.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Dude these witnesses are USELESS. Alan Close is so scared he can't even speak and the judge agrees with Oliver it's difficult to understand wtf Alan's talking about because he keeps saying no then yes to the same questions. They have to ask him if he's ill because he can't even speak half the time and keeps contradicting himself every sentence.

                              Lily Pinches (the newsagent manageress) says he DIDN'T mention Qualtrough to her, then says he did and she's sure he did, then that he didn't mention Qualtrough, then that she's sure he didn't, then that she swears he didn't.

                              These witnesses are utterly shambolic.

                              The phone box guy says there's no light in that box he's certain, then that there might be, then that there isn't, then that he's not sure.

                              You won't even believe this it's ridiculous. Every witness is like this.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Just photographed over 300 pages, the entire main trial.

                                I now also have the full appeal trial and I will now be photographing this. I don't believe any transcription of this appears online.

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