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The Murder of Julia Wallace (1931) - Full DPP case files

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  • #61
    I hate maps!

    Ive tried to find where Scotland Road is in relation to everything else and failed. I wanted to know if it was a logical place for Wallace (and Amy) to have been on that night. Also how far is it from the tram stop (even though we don’t know where in Scotland Road they were) Carr said that he saw them at 8.10. Wallace had spoken to Constable Serjeant at 7.45. He then went to the Post Office then on to the newsagent which must have taken him close to 8.00. As we have 2 apparently reliable timings would Wallace have had time to get to Scotland Road and then to the tram for the return journey?

    There must also be an explanation for why Amy’s son said nothing about his mother being out alone at that time of night. So either he was involved or else he was out at the time? Did they only choose the Tuesday night because Amy was free to go out without raising suspicion because her son was out?

    Regards

    Herlock




    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      I hate maps!

      Ive tried to find where Scotland Road is in relation to everything else and failed. I wanted to know if it was a logical place for Wallace (and Amy) to have been on that night. Also how far is it from the tram stop (even though we don’t know where in Scotland Road they were) Carr said that he saw them at 8.10. Wallace had spoken to Constable Serjeant at 7.45. He then went to the Post Office then on to the newsagent which must have taken him close to 8.00. As we have 2 apparently reliable timings would Wallace have had time to get to Scotland Road and then to the tram for the return journey?

      There must also be an explanation for why Amy’s son said nothing about his mother being out alone at that time of night. So either he was involved or else he was out at the time? Did they only choose the Tuesday night because Amy was free to go out without raising suspicion because her son was out?
      Scotland Road is about 5 miles North-West of Menlove Avenue. I believe Wallace says he got the tram at 8 PM. If they were there to dispose of something it would be a logical place to be, since it is close to the ferries and water where it would be trivial to dispose of a piece of iron or something of that nature.

      Wallace was next seen at home around 8.45.

      His journey from his back door to Menlove Gardens West was about 30 to 35 minutes. The trip home appears to have taken 10 minutes longer. Possibly this can be accounted for by the fact he went to the front door of his house, and perhaps had longer wait times for trams.

      Scotland Road to Wolverton Street though, would be just 10 minutes. I have not worked it out with the walking time, but it's a short distance. If Amy is there, it seems plausible he would continue home while she carries out some important task.

      Has anyone ever seen Edwin's statement?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

        Scotland Road is about 5 miles North-West of Menlove Avenue. I believe Wallace says he got the tram at 8 PM. If they were there to dispose of something it would be a logical place to be, since it is close to the ferries and water where it would be trivial to dispose of a piece of iron or something of that nature.

        Wallace was next seen at home around 8.45.

        His journey from his back door to Menlove Gardens West was about 30 to 35 minutes. The trip home appears to have taken 10 minutes longer. Possibly this can be accounted for by the fact he went to the front door of his house, and perhaps had longer wait times for trams.

        Scotland Road to Wolverton Street though, would be just 10 minutes. I have not worked it out with the walking time, but it's a short distance. If Amy is there, it seems plausible he would continue home while she carries out some important task.

        Has anyone ever seen Edwin's statement?
        I’ve certainly never seen Edwin’s statement and I can’t recall mention of it in any of the books but you’ve read them more recently than I have.

        What’s a bit strange is that if Carr saw them at 8.10 then Wallace (or both of them) had already taken one tram (at 8.00) So why do they appear to be lost? Wallace asked enough about directions on the way there so why didn’t he do the same on the return journey? Unless Amy was with him of course and he didn’t want to risk being identified as being with someone? Then again they could easily have sat apart to have given the appearance of not being together which would have allowed him to ask directions. More to the point wouldn’t he simply have taken the same trams on the route back?

        I need a decent, wide map of the area. I’m really poor with directions and where places are in relation to other places and distances (not just in this case but in life in general. No one ever asks me to navigate!) So my question is was Scotland Road a plausible place for Wallace to have been 10 minutes after catching his first tram?
        Regards

        Herlock




        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

        Comment


        • #64
          Google Earth is handy.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

            I’ve certainly never seen Edwin’s statement and I can’t recall mention of it in any of the books but you’ve read them more recently than I have.

            What’s a bit strange is that if Carr saw them at 8.10 then Wallace (or both of them) had already taken one tram (at 8.00) So why do they appear to be lost? Wallace asked enough about directions on the way there so why didn’t he do the same on the return journey? Unless Amy was with him of course and he didn’t want to risk being identified as being with someone? Then again they could easily have sat apart to have given the appearance of not being together which would have allowed him to ask directions. More to the point wouldn’t he simply have taken the same trams on the route back?

            I need a decent, wide map of the area. I’m really poor with directions and where places are in relation to other places and distances (not just in this case but in life in general. No one ever asks me to navigate!) So my question is was Scotland Road a plausible place for Wallace to have been 10 minutes after catching his first tram?
            Well, I'm not sure he would have an easy time explaining why he had gone out of the way to Scotland Road (the route is not the most natural route home compared to the route he allegedly took). But really I'd say he simply knew where he was going so didn't need to ask for directions. With Menlove Gardens, I think possibly he did not know it well (just that it's off Menlove Avenue) and so his asking for directions was quite genuine.

            ---

            Here's a map which has the points of where these locations are:

            ---




            The tram stop Wallace passes is where Topps Tiles Anfield is I think.

            ---

            Distance between Menlove Gardens and Scotland Road:

            ---




            Scotland Road appears to be on a dual carriageway, and when you use the left lane it gives a different name (in this case, Byrom Street), hence I have replaced the names. If you put the marker on the right lane it has to double back.

            Robert Carr said Wallace was on foot when he spoke to him at Scotland Road.

            ---

            Map of the distance between Scotland Road and where, as I recall, Wallace's tram stop is:

            ---



            ---

            If I've got anything wrong please let me know.

            Comment


            • #66
              By the way, I have made a grave error in regards to Parry coming from Park/Lark Lane. Re-reading these statements, what it says is that Parry went to call at one of these places after he had been to Lily's front door for the first time (before then returning later in the evening), rather than saying he had just come from there when he first got to Lily's door at 7.XX pm.

              Of course, Parry very well may have been driving up Breck Road to Lily's in any case (since we have never been told where exactly he was before arriving at Lily's), but with Lark/Park Lane I thought I could place him there with certainty.

              That is a laughable memory lapse from myself. I can't believe I would make such an error.
              Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-18-2020, 04:11 AM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Thought I should add this, the route Wallace claimed he took home on the night of the murder:

                ---



                You will see Scotland Road circled in red there.

                Basically, to go to Scotland Road and then to Belmont Road where he gets off, it's about an additional 2 to 3 miles. The journey time (based on the ~2 mile journey from Smithdown Road (where he got on the 7.06 tram, right?) and Menlove Gardens West (where he got off at 7.20 I believe), it'd be about 15 extra minutes of journey time.

                That's a MEGA rough estimate of course since Wallace changed trams on that journey (Smithdown to Penny Lane, Penny Lane to Menlove Gardens West)...

                But considering he left his total journey from his back door to Menlove Gardens West was about 30 to 35 minutes, you might expect around 45 to 50 minutes back if he had taken a detour around Scotland Road.

                With him getting a tram at 8 PM as claimed, this would mean he would arrive at his back door at around 8.45 to 8.50 PM if he had taken the detour?

                Very rough estimations, not to be taken as anything concrete, more theorizing... Especially since Robert Carr did not specify precisely where on Scotland Road he believes he saw Wallace and Amy. Further, that's assuming he was able to specify the time down to the very minute. There may be some margin of error.

                But it seems if Wallace had gone there, he would have arrived at Scotland Road at roughly 8.30 not 8.10.
                Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-18-2020, 12:11 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  On Google Maps it gives Menlove Gardens to Scotland Road at about 20 minutes. I'm really not good at working out speeds and times that's more Antony's thing.

                  Essentially the sighting being at 8.10 seems a tad fast. 8.20 to 8.30 would seem more accurate.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I've organized all the case files here:

                    https://www.williamherbertwallace.co...onal-archives/

                    For easy viewing. Also because Imgur images expire, and hosting it myself I can ensure they stay up and open to the public.

                    I have been given access to two more large files regarding this case.

                    I will be going down to view these this Tuesday. I will also view this first one again just to quadruple check I did not miss anything.

                    So stay tuned. More documents and files will be coming next week.

                    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                    ...
                    Credited those John Bull images as being uploaded by Rod, because I swore I saw his name on there first time I viewed them. If this is wrong let me know and I'll credit you.
                    Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-19-2020, 04:59 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                      I've organized all the case files here:

                      https://www.williamherbertwallace.co...onal-archives/

                      For easy viewing. Also because Imgur images expire, and hosting it myself I can ensure they stay up and open to the public.

                      I have been given access to two more large files regarding this case.

                      I will be going down to view these this Tuesday. I will also view this first one again just to quadruple check I did not miss anything.

                      So stay tuned. More documents and files will be coming next week.



                      Credited those John Bull images as being uploaded by Rod, because I swore I saw his name on there first time I viewed them. If this is wrong let me know and I'll credit you.
                      I’m positive that they were posted by Rod

                      You’ve done a really professional job of putting all this stuff together WWH but you’ve given the game away by revealing your name as RM Qualtrough

                      Good hunting on tuesday.
                      Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 01-19-2020, 09:08 PM.
                      Regards

                      Herlock




                      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        It’s interesting for me to see the newspaper entry in the Liverpool Echo February 8th from the Prosecuting Solicitor at the Stipendiary Court. I raised a point around 2 years ago about how suspicious it was that Wallace ignored the Parlour to go upstairs. Leaving the Parlour until last. Here we have the Solicitor making the very same point.
                        Regards

                        Herlock




                        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          I’m positive that they were posted by Rod

                          You’ve done a really professional job of putting all this stuff together WWH but you’ve given the game away by revealing your name as RM Qualtrough

                          Good hunting on tuesday.
                          Thank you, I couldn't resist that username lol. I will come back Tuesday evening with many more goodies for you.

                          Personally I do not so much get the parlour thing because really it comes down to how panicked you think he was. In fact I think the exact opposite, if he'd gone into the room in the house that gets used the absolute least, I'd think it's a strong indication he knew she was in there (since it would be unnatural to not just assume your wife had gone to bed). Different if the room was actually used with any sort of frequency.

                          And with the Beattie address thing too... I mean what's the point of asking for the address? Clearly the single, sole benefit to doing so is to make it seem that you are a complete stranger. But Wallace severely narrowed the suspect pool and said Julia wouldn't let in anyone unknown to her etc. He said it must be someone known to them... Which would defeat the purpose of that question if he was the one who asked it.

                          To me, it seems more like, if this was some sort of dodgy scheme, the person was HOPING Beattie would give them the address, so when they rob the place/kill Julia the next day the police think it's someone who didn't even know where his house was until extracting the info.

                          Anyway, let me see what I can dig up on Tuesday...

                          ---

                          By the way Wallace case fans, I'm very bad at researching family connections, if anyone here is good at that sort of thing, please investigate very thoroughly whether there is ANY connection between Alfred Mather (the ex-Pru agent who despised Wallace and Julia), and Katie Mather (the woman who lived at 25 Menlove Gardens West).

                          Mather clearly has animosity for Wallace AND Julia, knows about Wallace's insurance business, actually worked at the Pru so might have heard of R J Qualtrough, knows Wallace's home address, and has been into Wallace's house several times. If it then additionally turned out he was a relative of the woman and her husband at 25 Menlove Gardens West, I think that would be a possible lead.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                            It’s interesting for me to see the newspaper entry in the Liverpool Echo February 8th from the Prosecuting Solicitor at the Stipendiary Court. I raised a point around 2 years ago about how suspicious it was that Wallace ignored the Parlour to go upstairs. Leaving the Parlour until last. Here we have the Solicitor making the very same point.
                            Personally I couldn’t get my head around the ignoring the parlour thing either.

                            Something I brought up a couple of years ago also, was the question of why Wallace did not, on his jaunt around Allerton, knock on the door of 25 Menlove Avenue? Just to eliminate that address from his dilemma. Someone posted that ,that would have been too far a field for him to have visited. But here now we have Ms. Lily Pinches , running the newsagents at 130 Menlove Avenue, advising Wallace to do just that, but I do believe he did not take her advice , odd! From 130 Menlove Avenue where I understand he left after 8 pm. he walks the length of Green Lane supposedly calls at the house where he took violin lessons a couple of years before , finding no-one home, continues on to meet up with a police officer who he discusses his problem with, before heading for the first of two trams on Allerton road. I can’t see him being seen with a women on Scotland road to be likely , before arriving back in Clubmore by 8 45 . (Remember it wasn’t the rush hour , so it’s likely he would have to wait a good few minutes for a tramcar to arrive)
                            In Allerton Most of the homes in that area of Liverpool were built during a period after the first war, they were in quite a pleasant ,leafy suburb type of region, as they still are today ,yet I seem to recall reading , one of Wallace’s chess mates warning him ‘off ‘ being in that area of the town at night, I thought that quite odd.
                            PS. Could the couple encountered on Scotland Road have been Amy with her husband Joseph?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              I’ve certainly never seen Edwin’s statement and I can’t recall mention of it in any of the books but you’ve read them more recently than I have.

                              What’s a bit strange is that if Carr saw them at 8.10 then Wallace (or both of them) had already taken one tram (at 8.00) So why do they appear to be lost? Wallace asked enough about directions on the way there so why didn’t he do the same on the return journey? Unless Amy was with him of course and he didn’t want to risk being identified as being with someone? Then again they could easily have sat apart to have given the appearance of not being together which would have allowed him to ask directions. More to the point wouldn’t he simply have taken the same trams on the route back?

                              I need a decent, wide map of the area. I’m really poor with directions and where places are in relation to other places and distances (not just in this case but in life in general. No one ever asks me to navigate!) So my question is was Scotland Road a plausible place for Wallace to have been 10 minutes after catching his first tram?
                              Google earth is my favourite .
                              The way I understand it. On Wallace’s outward journey his second tram drops him off near Menlove Gardens west. Menlove Avenue, being the main tram route. His return trip from what I have read is where he takes a first tram at the west end of Green Lane ,on Allerton Road north toward Liverpool, however It looks like both Allerton road and Menlove avenue converge on Penny Lane ,so his second tram coming home was probably same as the first tram coming out. Confused yet,Lol.
                              Since there are , strangely no witnesses for his return trip , we have no proof of anything.
                              To answer your question though ,No it’s highly implausible, in my opinion.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by moste View Post

                                Personally I couldn’t get my head around the ignoring the parlour thing either.

                                Something I brought up a couple of years ago also, was the question of why Wallace did not, on his jaunt around Allerton, knock on the door of 25 Menlove Avenue? Just to eliminate that address from his dilemma. Someone posted that ,that would have been too far a field for him to have visited. But here now we have Ms. Lily Pinches , running the newsagents at 130 Menlove Avenue, advising Wallace to do just that, but I do believe he did not take her advice , odd! From 130 Menlove Avenue where I understand he left after 8 pm. he walks the length of Green Lane supposedly calls at the house where he took violin lessons a couple of years before , finding no-one home, continues on to meet up with a police officer who he discusses his problem with, before heading for the first of two trams on Allerton road. I can’t see him being seen with a women on Scotland road to be likely , before arriving back in Clubmore by 8 45 . (Remember it wasn’t the rush hour , so it’s likely he would have to wait a good few minutes for a tramcar to arrive)
                                In Allerton Most of the homes in that area of Liverpool were built during a period after the first war, they were in quite a pleasant ,leafy suburb type of region, as they still are today ,yet I seem to recall reading , one of Wallace’s chess mates warning him ‘off ‘ being in that area of the town at night, I thought that quite odd.
                                PS. Could the couple encountered on Scotland Road have been Amy with her husband Joseph?
                                The fact he didn't go to Menlove Avenue is in favour of his innocence, not guilt... Cui bono, who benefits? What does he gain from NOT going there and returning home instead? The only thing he gains by not checking that address, is that people can use it against him. There is absolutely no benefit for him.

                                Think of it from his perspective if he's an innocent man:

                                He went to the officer who told him to see a directory. He goes to the directory and sees a person of that name does not live in the area, nor is there a Menlove Gardens East.

                                Wolverton Street had been burgled only one month earlier and here is a man who is beginning to become just a touch anxious (upon seeing there is no person with such a name) that his home may have been burgled.

                                This is more consistent with his actions.

                                ---

                                Btw about the bad place to be knocking about thing: Perhaps the area was nice, but a skeleton key housebreaking gang was operating in that area at the time. I think a group had just been arrested recently for breaking into one of the Menlove Gardens homes... So perhaps the area was nice, but the people who came there from elsewhere to do no good were not so nice.

                                Or a simple error.

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