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Hammersmith Nude Murders (Stripper)

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  • Naming Mungo Ireland and Freddie Mills as the killer was certainly a miscarriage of justice.

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    • Hi Neil

      Do you know of any JTS-type crimes where someone has been convicted but doubts remain?

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      • I don't Robert. I am not particularly a crime fan, only those committed by Harold Jones. He was born in my home town of Abertillery.

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        • Originally posted by John G View Post

          Hello Trevor,

          I think the documentary presented a good circumstantial case- in my view, he's definitely the best candidate that's been proposed-but this obviously does not amount to beyond reasonable doubt.

          There are also, in my opinion, some obvious weaknesses with his candidacy. For instance, I don't think the photo-fit was a particularly good likeness, although like most photo-fits it could be pretty much anyone!

          I also think you made a very good point earlier regarding the fact that there would have been a substantial period between killings: he was released from prison way back in 1941, and the first suggested Hammersmith Nude Murder wasn't until 1959, Elizabeth Figg, and she's far from a definite victim. But even that represents a substantial period of 18 years, a very long time for a serial killer to go without killing, possibly unprecedented. And it's even more problematic when you consider that he was portrayed as an unrepentant sexual sadist who was almost certain to strike again.
          Hi John,

          My only point here would be that I would find it even more problematic to believe that a killer like Jones could have so totally reformed during his time in prison, that he no longer had any violent feelings towards females, or somehow managed - or chose - to keep them fully in check for the rest of his life. While teenagers often do 'grow out of' bad habits like petty theft, drugs offences, belonging to gangs and so on, I do wonder what the chances are of a teenager of fifteen growing out of sexually motivated murder.

          Jones may have had enough control, after being confined for so long without the opportunity, to bide his time and only start to offend again as and when he felt confident he could do it without anyone thinking back to the Welsh murders and the young Harold Jones and looking into his more recent activities.

          Love,

          Caz
          X
          Last edited by caz; 03-04-2019, 02:16 PM.
          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


          Comment


          • Originally posted by caz View Post

            Hi John,

            My only point here would be that I would find it even more problematic to believe that a killer like Jones could have so totally reformed during his time in prison, that he no longer had any violent feelings towards females, or somehow managed - or chose - to keep them fully in check for the rest of his life. While teenagers often do 'grow out of' bad habits like petty theft, drugs offences, belonging to gangs and so on, I do wonder what the chances are of a teenager of fifteen growing out of sexually motivated murder.

            Jones may have had enough control, after being confined for so long without the opportunity, to bide his time and only start to offend again as and when he felt confident he could do it without anyone thinking back to the Welsh murders and the young Harold Jones and looking into his more recent activities.

            Love,

            Caz
            X
            Surely he would have been released on life parole and the probation service would have known where he was at any given time. He would have had a duty to keep them informed as to his whereabouts, any breach of his parole and his licence could have been revoked, and him sent back to prison.

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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            • Morning Trev,

              Surely if that's the case, the police should have no trouble obtaining, in the course of their review, a record of what tabs were kept on him since his release, his whereabouts, any change(s) of name, employment etc, and whether he was a good boy and kept the probation service informed whenever his circumstances changed. If he simply stopped telling them where he was living, and was using a different name, they'd have had to find him first, before he could have been sent back to prison.

              But that's all good, isn't it? If he was innocent of any later murders or violent offences, the records may help to clear him, assuming they haven't been destroyed.

              A question: if the probation service did know where Jones was living during the JtS murders, and what name he was using, would he not have been flagged up for questioning, if the whole point was to keep an eye on him and make sure he wasn't breaching his parole conditions? I'd have thought murder would be top of the list to get him back inside!

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              Last edited by caz; 03-05-2019, 10:39 AM.
              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


              Comment


              • Originally posted by caz View Post
                Morning Trev,

                Surely if that's the case, the police should have no trouble obtaining, in the course of their review, a record of what tabs were kept on him since his release, his whereabouts, any change(s) of name, employment etc, and whether he was a good boy and kept the probation service informed whenever his circumstances changed. If he simply stopped telling them where he was living, and was using a different name, they'd have had to find him first, before he could have been sent back to prison.

                But that's all good, isn't it? If he was innocent of any later murders or violent offences, the records may help to clear him, assuming they haven't been destroyed.

                A question: if the probation service did know where Jones was living during the JtS murders, and what name he was using, would he not have been flagged up for questioning, if the whole point was to keep an eye on him and make sure he wasn't breaching his parole conditions? I'd have thought murder would be top of the list to get him back inside!

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                Hi Caz

                If he had been on life parole back then, and had failed to notify a change of address, and had changed his name for a sinister purpose as some suggest, the authorities would have soon been able to locate him, whereas he might have told them he was changing his name to hide his past to protect his current family and they may have approved those changes, so the name change may not be as sinister as some suggest. After all he would have to have had a national insurance no for his employers so easily traceable.

                If all the file on the murders still exists in its entirety, then it should make it easy, but he was flagged up as a suspect as far back as 2011 with the Fred Dineage casebook prog so a number of questions now arise

                Why were the police not contacted back then and asked to do a review?
                What new evidence has come to light since then?

                Prof Wilson and Neil Milkins were involved in both progs, and both seem reluctant to answer questions that might go to proving or disproving his involvement

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                Comment


                • Trev, his first electoral entry at the home of his future wife and father-in-law was as Harold Jones, which changed to Harry Stevens a year later. His father-in-law was a retired policeman. If the police were keeping tabs on him at all, they seem to have been fobbed off rather easily.

                  Comment


                  • Hi Robert,

                    It does seem strange that Jones could have avoided being questioned about the JtS murders if he was living and working in the West London area at the time, with the full knowledge of the probation service charged with making sure he was behaving himself. Perhaps they did keep an eye on him and were able to eliminate him without anyone being the wiser.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Hi Caz

                      I cannot remember the wording, but I think the officer whom they gave the presentation to in the documentary said that Jones hadn't cropped up in the investigation - but whether as a suspect or in any capacity at all, I can't remember.

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                      • Hi Robert. Alan Jackaman stated that names Harold Jones/Harry Stevens/Harry Jones never featured or cropped up as a suspect in the murders inquiry. I am convinced that owing to the war years Jones just got lost in the fog of time and confusion.

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                        • Hi Neil

                          Yes. If the police ever knew about his going back to Abertillery and sitting there brazenly playing the organ, that would surely have made them keep tabs on him. So maybe they didn't know.

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                          • Hi Robert. You have to remember that most of the police officers involved in the Abertillery murders would have retired or died by the time Jones left the army in 1946. As I have previously stated, I am convinced Jones killed at will after his discharge. By the time of the nudes' murders around 40 years after the Abertillery murders I doubt if anyone would have had a clue that Jones could have been responsible for the Hammersmith murders. It is astounding that Jones' father-in-law was ex Met. Did he know about Jones' past? I wouldn't want an ex double child rapist and murderer with my daughter or living under my roof. Some things may never be known whilst other things will be revealed.

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                            • Hi Neil

                              Yes, the retired policeman is a good pointer. To me, Jones's lodging with the man and marrying his daughter is psychologically akin to the attitude Jones displayed when he killed the second girl after escaping justice for the first. A sort of "I will have the last word" mentality.

                              Comment


                              • Pretty new to these murders so just a couple of questions I would like to ask. Bridget O Hara went missing on 11 Jan and her body not found till 16 Feb. I know it seems likely she was murdered near the first date but is this confirmed? IE Did she regularly lead a wayward life and disappear? Secondly what evidence is there that Mungo Ireland was in Scotland at the time of this murder, and on what dates? Since there is a gap of just over a month between Bridget going missing and her body being found.
                                Regards Darryl

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