Manson Ranch--New Investigation

[jmenges]

The case in my family is one of a domestic dispute turn multiple murder that occurred in the early 1930's in which a jilted husband attempted to wipe out our entire family, which at that time included my grandmother, great aunts and uncles, and great-grandparents. Both my great-grandparents were killed and a great-aunt was severely stabbed but survived. He was caught, convicted, and paroled from prison in the early 1980's. The killer is deceased now.

There was an area at UT Austin that was reserved for student groups, Christians, Krishnas etc who could pass out literature. Koresh and/or the Branch Davidians were fixtures for a time at this "free-speech" mall and they were the run-of-the-mill Christian witnesses who would pass out pamphlets and talk Christ to the passing students. They were 7th Day Adventists and advertised themselves as such. They would invite students to join them for free Sunday meals and worship at Mount Carmel, and were generally friendly, non-pushy, and definitely non-cultlike. Koresh (who called himself Vernon) and the half-dozen of other church members would set up a table and pass out religious pamphlets. They were totally non-threatening.

Edit-

Did you suspect he could do the things he did?

Well, no, I didn't suspect he was doing the things he did. But to me, that means the only thing illegal he was caught doing, which was fashioning illegal guns for sale. Although this came as no surprise to me since it was in rural Waco, Texas and the church had to raise money for themselves somehow (after the bank accounts of their members were drained). What I believe you might mean is molesting children and setting them all on fire, which I think are to this day both debatable points.

Let me say this, I could not believe what I was seeing when the standoff and raid went down. That entire month or so was unreal, surreal, and unbelievable.

JM

[Celesta]

This is an extraordinary story. This would have happened when your mother was a child, or before she was born? One hears about these things happening, but rarely encounters someone whose family endured it. It's difficult to think of what to say. It must be a very tough thing to take in when you are a young member of the family. Hopefully you have enough of a sense of the family history to pass on to those who come after you. For your grandmother to lose both of her parents and nearly lose an aunt...

Have you written a family history of the event?

We also had the religious groups at my college as well. They would congregate in rather busy areas and wrap their arms around each other and chant "Oh, Lord Jesus!" over and over again. A friend of mine, a guy I thought was the epitome of cool at the time became one of them, which at the time was a letdown to me. But then, it was none of my business either. He got arrested when he was out in California for having a joint, I think, and it terrified him so much that he began to pray hysterically (his word) to Jesus. He told me Jesus appeared to him in the cell. He was already a fine person. He dedicated his life to the Christian belief system. So this group was not really a cult, I guess. I saw my friend some years later and he was still the same fine man that I had known, but I really missed his long hair!

I am sorry for the loss of your family. From the little I have seen of you here, you seen to have emerged as a strongly grounded person.

My best to you.

[jmenges]

This occurred in the 1931, when my grandmother was a child. (I'm 35...) So she was raised in an orphanage where she met my grandfather, whose parents also passed in other circumstances. They were both youngsters there. So, if it were not for this guy killing my great-grandparents, yada yada yada. Thanks for the thoughts.

You can read press reports about it on jtrforums.com

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2469

I do wonder who on the boards have used the 6 degrees of separation theory and can connect themselves to famous murderers or victims. Might be a good thread idea. I have a couple of them myself and I'm sure others do as well.

JM

[Celesta]

Hi JM,

I took a quick look and will go back and take a more methodical look. You've got some good documentation on this. I would also like to see how that thread developed.

Maybe you're right about the six degrees of separation part. Until yesterday, it never occurred to me to look for serial killings in Texas dating to the time of the event I described. I had more or less accepted the possibility set forth by an engineer I worked with, that the person who tried to break in could have been this beheading guy, and perhaps that he was the neighbor's "cousin." I was pretty oblivious to Watts at the time. I took note of his arrest and the hoopla in the news but so much was going on that I did little more than that.

The mug shots, in your newspaper articles, don't show a young man, do they?

Thank you for talking with me about this part of your family life. I'm just sorry it happened.

[Mike Covell]

Sky News have only just picked up on the story, to busy chatting with Heather Mills I expect!!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1309816,00.html

[Celesta]

This will probably turn out to be plots where they buried garbage, or something.

[jmenges]

Steven Kay: "But you know, could he have killed someone else? Possibly."

Who did Manson actually kill in the first place?

JM

[Celesta]

Steven Kay: "But you know, could he have killed someone else? Possibly."

Who did Manson actually kill in the first place?

JM

Right. Nobody. Actually.

[Magpie]

Right. Nobody. Actually.

Actually, he killed Gary Hinman.

[Celesta]

Actually, he killed Gary Hinman.

As far as I'm concerned, he killed them all.

[jmenges]

Actually, he killed Gary Hinman.

Bobby Beausoleil killed Gary Hinman. Manson may have cut his face with a sword, which the girls tried to sew up, but then Manson left. Going from memory here. It was Beausoleil's arrest for the Hinman murder (from which he was later convicted) that some use to speculate that the Tate killings were copycat of the Hinman murder in an attempt to free Beausoleil from jail.

JM

[Magpie]

As far as I'm concerned, he killed them all.

Well, true enough, but I'm referring to actually doing the deed personally

[Limehouse]

It amazes me that Manson was able to hold sway over those young people and influence their actions to such an extent. He was, and is, virtually illiterate, and yet he possessed an intelligence and charisma that enraptured highly educated people. Even now, one or two of his followers believe that his ideas about society and the resulting actions were justifiable. Incredible.

[Celesta]

It amazes me that Manson was able to hold sway over those young people and influence their actions to such an extent. He was, and is, virtually illiterate, and yet he possessed an intelligence and charisma that enraptured highly educated people. Even now, one or two of his followers believe that his ideas about society and the resulting actions were justifiable. Incredible.

It's like a religious zeal, or something of that nature. Only what he was preaching was not a healthy, life-enhancing spirituality. It has to do with need. A healthier, more well-grounded person might find it hard to understand what happened with these folks. These were very needy people, in more ways than one. In a time when there were peace movements, civil rights movements, and the like, this guy was preaching race war, among other things, through which the Manson group would attain power. I hate to admit that he possesses some kind of power, but it's chaos power. "Incredible" is right, Limehouse.

[Limehouse]

Oh yes, I think you are right about the time in which these events was located. It is crucial. Despite the fact that it is perceived as being a time of 'peace and love' there was conflict kicking off all over the globe. There was a cold war, with east and west coming very close to a catastrophic, head-on collision; Vietnam - with germ warfare and full-on armed conflict, trouble in northern Ireland, unrest in South America and in the Middle East and of course, class war which, in Manson's terms, would be a black-on-white civil war.

It is no wonder these confused youngsters were captured by Manson's preaching. He certainly did have some power over them and, importantly, knew where their vulnerabilities lay so that he could pick and probe and work them into a frenzy.

Their actions were pure evil. I don't care how long they've been in jail and how much they've changed - they should be prepared to die in jail to atone for their terrible crimes. After all, their victims' families are deprived of their loved ones for life, aren't they?