Madeleine McCann

[barnflatwyngarde]

Can anyone recommend to me a good book on this case? I'm hoping for one that's thorough in expounding the known facts, lists the major theories and speculations, but tries to remain neutral. I know that's a tall order, but if anyone has suggestions, I'd be grateful.

In my opinion the best book on the subject is the one written by Goncalo Amaral, who was I believe in charge of the investigation.

The book is not available in Britain, but if you Google "The Truth of the Lie", I think you will find a link to the book in English.

The third link is, I think, the one you are after.

[miss marple]

When Madelaine disappeared I did not think the McCanns were guity of involvement in her death, where would they put the body?
I over the years completely changed my mind, so much evidence has come out pointing to their involvement in a cover up. The trashing of the crime scene, the McCanns strange behaviour afterwards, and manipulation of the narrative in the media. Kate's refusal to answer questions. The damming evidence of blood in the apartment, the disappearence of the blanket, no alien DNA found,corpse scent in the apartment and above all in the hire car, the trip to Spain, to dispose of the body?

The relationship with Madelaine appears to have been difficult. The probability is she died accidently [ manslaughter]. I think it is possible she was never in the bedroom that night. She was not seen after 5.30 on the day of her disappearence. I think she died sometime before the children were put to bed and the body hidden. They did not have a baby sitting service because Maddie was not in the bed . The twins were given a sleeping draught so they would not wake up. So who ever 'looked in' on them that evening would discover Maddy missing. Kate discovered her missing and then acted in a completely inappropriate way.

In Britain you can be found guity of murder without the actual body. I do not know what the situation is in Portugal but why after the corpse scent in the hire car where they not arrested on suspicion of disposing of a corpse? Had it happened in England, the crime scene would have been sealed and they would have been suspects.

Miss Marple

[John Wheat]

It's basically sad for Madeline either her parents essentially killed her probably accidentally or she is either dead at the hand of a paedophile or she's alive being abused by a paedophile or a group of paedophile's.

[louisa]

You can be found guilty without there being a corpse in the USA and in the UK. Nowadays with the advancements in DNA it easier to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Even if the parents were guilty (and I suspect they were) then I cannot see them ever being brought to trial.

I read Amaral's book and whilst it is interesting and I think he was basically on the right track I am not so sure that Maddie died in the way he stated. I am leaning far more towards an accidental drug overdose.

Imo the McCanns gave all three children sedatives. Maddie had told her mother that she had woken up the previous night and cried for her mum (Kate admits this on a YouTube interview) which leads me to believe the parents were out on the razzle the night before as well.

Sedatives were given to stop the children from getting out of bed and going AWOL. Maddie may have been given a little too much.

The twins - as we know - were in such a deep sleep that they did not wake up EVEN during all the chaos that later that night and the following morning and were carried from the apartment some time during the following day and they were STILL ASLEEP!

The McCanns could not cope with Maddie, she was hyperactive. I understand that at the time all of this happened they were in negotiations with a close relative to take Maddie.

For parents who are unable to squeeze out a single tear....I think it would be better for them to stay out of the limelight completely than appear in front of the cameras totally dry eyed.

I'm also thinking of the parents of JonBenet Ramsey.

[Henry Flower]

You can be found guilty without there being a corpse in the USA and in the UK. Nowadays with the advancements in DNA it easier to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Even if the parents were guilty (and I suspect they were) then I cannot see them ever being brought to trial.

I read Amaral's book and whilst it is interesting and I think he was basically on the right track I am not so sure that Maddie died in the way he stated. I am leaning far more towards an accidental drug overdose.

Imo the McCanns gave all three children sedatives. Maddie had told her mother that she had woken up the previous night and cried for her mum (Kate admits this on a YouTube interview) which leads me to believe the parents were out on the razzle the night before as well.

Sedatives were given to stop the children from getting out of bed and going AWOL. Maddie may have been given a little too much.

The twins - as we know - were in such a deep sleep that they did not wake up EVEN during all the chaos that later that night and the following morning and were carried from the apartment some time during the following day and they were STILL ASLEEP!

The McCanns could not cope with Maddie, she was hyperactive. I understand that at the time all of this happened they were in negotiations with a close relative to take Maddie.

For parents who are unable to squeeze out a single tear....I think it would be better for them to stay out of the limelight completely than appear in front of the cameras totally dry eyed.

I'm also thinking of the parents of JonBenet Ramsey.

Hi Louisa, if you're suggesting she died of a drug overdose in her bed then what is your explanation for the blood behind the sofa, a sufficient amount having originally been present that some of it seeped down beneath floor tiles?

[louisa]

Hi Louisa, if you're suggesting she died of a drug overdose in her bed then what is your explanation for the blood behind the sofa, a sufficient amount having originally been present that some of it seeped down beneath floor tiles?

I've no idea. It's been years since I read Amaral's book but I presume it's mentioned in there?

If there was blood then who did it belong to? Presumably it was tested for DNA?

[Harry D]

As a disclaimer, I have never been able to lip-read (a great annoyance to me, as everyone seems to expect that you should, and then just keep making more and more exaggerated mouthings at you when you don't get the message). However...

I should think that it's more than possible to rule out some things being said, even if one doesn't know exactly what was said. As a trivial case, one can be sure that he's not reciting Lincoln's Second Inaugural in that span of time. In a more general sense, I think it should be possible to estimate the number of syllables and perhaps even phonemes in the statement by watching the motions of the mouth and lips. That should rule out some words.

That goes without saying...

There's still no way somebody can categorically deny that he says "F**k off" in that video.

[Abby Normal]

Absolutely, and that's before we decide which version of the night's events we decide to measure for - entry through the locked front door (original story) or unlocked French Windows (revised version).

I recently watched statement analyst Peter Hyatt going through McCann statements, and while I don't think statement analysis is fool-proof, the cumulative effect of some of his observations is absolutely damning for the McCanns. Madeleine is talked about always as a person to be remembered, reminisced about, nostalgically. She is never talked about as a living person. She is never, ever addressed personally by her parents in an interview. As a parent I would find it impossible not to do that, "Madeleine, our beloved daughter, we miss you, we love you, we will never stop looking until you're home" - but nothing of the sort has ever passed their lips.

I am torn between two scenarios:

1: the sedative leading to an accident, cover-up to hide their criminal neglect scenario, as supported by Kate checking the breathing of the twins when none of the tumult that night wakes them up.
2: something more vile, hinted at by the Gaspar statement concerning Gerry and David Payne's disturbing conversation. Food and wine, sadly, might not be the only reason an adult would want a child safely sedated.

I have almost no doubts about the following:

Madeleine was not abducted, there was no abductor.

They changed their story several times to adapt it to the facts as the investigation progressed.

She died in the apartment. Very highly regarded dogs found cadaverine from her body in several spots in the apartment, and in one instance blood in the same spot behind the sofa.

The DNA in the car was likely hers. My understanding is that it could have been a mixture of both parents, or it could have been hers. Legally inconclusive, but taken with the totality of the physical evidence...?

The curtains did not "whoosh" up only to then tuck themselves neatly back down behind the bed and the chair as per the photos.

She died probably earlier in the week. The weather conditions in the "last photo" match the weather from earlier in the week, not from the day of her "abduction".

The Portuguese police investigation wasn't a botched job. I've read the files and they did not simply ignore leads. Amaral did a good job in impossible circumstances.

The parents were not grieving. People say "you don't know how you'd act in extreme circumstances" - true, but I've seen more than enough interviews with grieving parents to know that there are triggers in sentences, thoughts that well up, words that overwhelm, even years after the event, leading to unmistakable emotional overloads whenever they discuss the subject. It is, in my opinion, the greatest pain a human can feel, the biggest fear an adult can have. I have never seen a flicker of it in either parent, at any point, ever. I've seen only defiance, defensiveness, aggression, sentimentality, and transparent story-telling.

The parents grossly over-use the word "we" when describing things that would more naturally require either an "I", a "he", or a "she". Why? Because the events being described are things that didn't really happen, things that "we" (ie both of them together) concocted, and because they each feel the need to be in it together, knowing that that if they stick to their story they will likely get away with it.

Child neglect is their alibi. Let that one sink in...

great post. very similar to ramsey case. the parent/s did it. put her body in the car and dumped it. could have been an accidental death and cover up, but like the ramseys, it could be the result of sexual abuse by the parents-people need to get over the unseemingly motive that a parent could do that to their young daughter-but people are sick bastards and I don't put anything past anybody. if the evidence points in that direction follow it-and get over motive.

like the ramseys, they also set it up that someone else would discover the problem-classic guilty behavior especially when it is a family murder. Both sets of parents were probably thinking-why cant these morons hurry up and discover the body/missing child already!

and totally agree with you on the interview part. Ive seen hundreds of grieving parent interviews, even of those suspected, and the ramseys and mcCanns stick out as total bullshit to me, as does there behavior.

they did it, the ramseys did it, both sets of parents should have been charged at the very least with abuse, and or neglect.

even in the small chance they didn't do it, ****em theyre all pieces of **** any way.

[louisa]

I never felt the McCann's were involved in any kind of paedophilia, neither were the Ramseys. They were guilty of a lot of things, but not that. Imo.

[Ginger]

In my opinion the best book on the subject is the one written by Goncalo Amaral, who was I believe in charge of the investigation.

The book is not available in Britain, but if you Google "The Truth of the Lie", I think you will find a link to the book in English.

The third link is, I think, the one you are after.

Thanks! Much appreciated!

[Henry Flower]

I never felt the McCann's were involved in any kind of paedophilia, neither were the Ramseys. They were guilty of a lot of things, but not that. Imo.

I do genuinely understand the reluctance to admit that possibility, I really do. But when I take the Gaspar statement, and my brain tries to dismiss it as probably harmless banter, another part of my brain says, "Nine times out of ten it would be harmless banter, yes, but in this instance the guys making pedophilic little jokes happen to be two guys with a very close connection to a beautiful 4yr old girl who completely vanished without trace, who have given weirdly conflicting versions of events, who refused to return to Portugal for a police reconstruction of their actions the night of a supposed abduction by a remarkably lucky intruder who left not a single iota of evidence of his entry, presence, or exit from the apartment"

Who are pedophiles and abusers? Usually family, step-dads, uncles, family friends. Not usually the lurking stranger stalking the home and tracking movements before pouncing.

Tragically it's not uncommon. I wouldn't entirely rule it out.

[Henry Flower]

great post. very similar to ramsey case. the parent/s did it. put her body in the car and dumped it. could have been an accidental death and cover up, but like the ramseys, it could be the result of sexual abuse by the parents-people need to get over the unseemingly motive that a parent could do that to their young daughter-but people are sick bastards and I don't put anything past anybody. if the evidence points in that direction follow it-and get over motive.

like the ramseys, they also set it up that someone else would discover the problem-classic guilty behavior especially when it is a family murder. Both sets of parents were probably thinking-why cant these morons hurry up and discover the body/missing child already!

and totally agree with you on the interview part. Ive seen hundreds of grieving parent interviews, even of those suspected, and the ramseys and mcCanns stick out as total bullshit to me, as does there behavior.

they did it, the ramseys did it, both sets of parents should have been charged at the very least with abuse, and or neglect.

even in the small chance they didn't do it, ****em theyre all pieces of **** any way.

The similarities are striking, and it's almost as though K & G learned from the mistakes of the Ramseys. No body this time.

But you know what puzzles me? Why, among all their friends, do Kate and Gerry not have their own Fleet White? Their actions and words were sufficiently dodgy that I would've expected at least one of their friends to come forward and say, you know what - something is not right here.....

[Abby Normal]

The similarities are striking, and it's almost as though K & G learned from the mistakes of the Ramseys. No body this time.

But you know what puzzles me? Why, among all their friends, do Kate and Gerry not have their own Fleet White? Their actions and words were sufficiently dodgy that I would've expected at least one of their friends to come forward and say, you know what - something is not right here.....

because they are spineless jelly fish and/or they simply didn't know enough to say anything.

[Abby Normal]

I do genuinely understand the reluctance to admit that possibility, I really do. But when I take the Gaspar statement, and my brain tries to dismiss it as probably harmless banter, another part of my brain says, "Nine times out of ten it would be harmless banter, yes, but in this instance the guys making pedophilic little jokes happen to be two guys with a very close connection to a beautiful 4yr old girl who completely vanished without trace, who have given weirdly conflicting versions of events, who refused to return to Portugal for a police reconstruction of their actions the night of a supposed abduction by a remarkably lucky intruder who left not a single iota of evidence of his entry, presence, or exit from the apartment"

Who are pedophiles and abusers? Usually family, step-dads, uncles, family friends. Not usually the lurking stranger stalking the home and tracking movements before pouncing.

Tragically it's not uncommon. I wouldn't entirely rule it out.

agree, as Ive said many times-who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

[louisa]

because they are spineless jelly fish and/or they simply didn't know enough to say anything.

Probably both.

They were all doctors weren't they? They have a tendency to close ranks when one of their own is under fire.

At one point during the investigations the British police told the press they were going to seize the cell phones and computers from the people who were present that night. By all accounts A LOT of phone calls were made that night between the couples.

Unfortunately none of this ever happened. At this time the British public were on the side of the McCanns and thought they were being victimized, and in the end the police left them alone.

The McCanns managed to gag anyone who spoke out against them. They managed to get a ban on Amaral's book getting published in the UK.

Whatever happened to freedom of speech?