Madeleine McCann

[Abby Normal]

No you are correct. It was definitively shown however in the Panorama documentary that the shutters could be lifted a certain amount from the outside, not the whole way. However if the inside window was open and on occasion this did happen, as there had been burglaries using this Modus operandi, the window could be slid open and a hand could then be put through the window to manipulate the controls from the inside thus lifting it the whole way. The MET uncovered at least 5 burglaries with this MO at the Ocean Club in the months preceeding the McCanns stay. This had included the apartment directly above where the McCanns had stayed.

The continual parroting of the PJ line from their initial investigation that the window did not open from outside is patently wrong and been proven so since. Now you have a few scenarios for the open window:

- An intruder uses the same MO as previous burglaries. In through the window and out the front door.

- An intruder enters via the patio doors and uses the window to pass Madeleine to an accomplice.

- An intruder enters via the patio doors and uses the window to check the coast is clear.

- Kate opens the window to stage an abduction.

For me the most likely by far is the first option. It also links with the idea of an opportunist abduction. Unaware of the open patio doors the intruder uses the MO they are comfortable and confident with namely to use the window as the entry point.

hi sunny
if you look at pictures of the window from tje outside it looks like it is at least 8 feet from the ground, and thats the bottom of the window. for someone to get into that window they would need a ladder or something to stand on. and of course with the metal security blind, it makes outside access even more difficult to get into. plus that side of the building is right next to a public road, mere feet, and ajacent to another more busy looking street...the apartment and the window are actually on a corner. so someone would have to contend with trying to get into a high up window from what looks like a very public street location. I highly doubt anyone went through that window.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I would like to hear from those who do not accept that Madeleine was abducted between 9.05 p.m. and 10 p.m. on 3 May 2007, when approximately they think she really went missing.

Please allow me to rephrase the challenge: if Payne saw Madeleine alive at about 6 p.m., then assuming that when the McCanns went to dinner, it was too late for them to kill and hide Madeleine's body, do those who do not accept that Madeleine was abducted between 9.05 p.m. and 10 p.m. on 3 May 2007, maintain that she was killed and her body hidden at some time between 6 p.m. and 7.30 p.m.?

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny
I believe you are right about the fingerprint procedure on the window , no gloves etc . I am not saying you are wrong that the window could be unlocked from the outside SD but looking at a photo, the window does appear to have what looks like a handle in the middle of the two panes on the material separating the panes with maybe a lock.
Apologies if I am wrong regarding this . Also I am sure I have seen somewhere that the shutters could be partially lifted from the outside but not locked into position at the top . Again apologies if I am wrong.

Regards Darryl

No you are correct. It was definitively shown however in the Panorama documentary that the shutters could be lifted a certain amount from the outside, not the whole way. However if the inside window was open and on occasion this did happen, as there had been burglaries using this Modus operandi, the window could be slid open and a hand could then be put through the window to manipulate the controls from the inside thus lifting it the whole way. The MET uncovered at least 5 burglaries with this MO at the Ocean Club in the months preceeding the McCanns stay. This had included the apartment directly above where the McCanns had stayed.

The continual parroting of the PJ line from their initial investigation that the window did not open from outside is patently wrong and been proven so since. Now you have a few scenarios for the open window:

- An intruder uses the same MO as previous burglaries. In through the window and out the front door.

- An intruder enters via the patio doors and uses the window to pass Madeleine to an accomplice.

- An intruder enters via the patio doors and uses the window to check the coast is clear.

- Kate opens the window to stage an abduction.

For me the most likely by far is the first option. It also links with the idea of an opportunist abduction. Unaware of the open patio doors the intruder uses the MO they are comfortable and confident with namely to use the window as the entry point.

[rjpalmer]

David Payne's visit to the McCann apartment at around 6pm is important as corroboration that Madeleine was alive at that time. But the reason for his visit seems unclear and there are doubts it ever occurred. Mrs. McCann says it lasted 30 seconds and she was wearing a towel, having just taken a shower. But mothers generally don't take even a quick a shower out of sight and hearing of three very young children, especially since there was presumably no great urgency for her to do so. She could have waited for her husband to return.

Payne himself remembered the visit as lasting 30 minutes, but was vague as to what the children were wearing. This mix up between 30 seconds and 30 minutes sounds like a verbal miscommunication rather than a total misjudgement of time, leading to suspicion the visit was artificially constructed to confirm that Madeleine McCann was alive at a time when she was not.

Are you certain that you are remembering this correctly? Is there a source for Payne saying this visit lasted 30 minutes?

Payne stated that the visit occurred between 6.30 and 7.00 pm, but he didn't mean this was the duration of the visit, only that it occurred sometime during that span.

In his tape police interview with the PJ, which is on-line in its entirely, Payne states the visit lasted "three minutes, five maximum."

30 seconds--three minutes, that's not a huge discrepancy for two people working from memory over an insignificant event.

___

1485 "And did you actually set eyes on each individual child''
Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.'

1485 "And were they standing up' Sitting down''
Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah.'

1485 "Did they actually acknowledge you''
Reply "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.'

1485 "Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine''
00:42:39 Reply "It was.'

1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.'
Reply "Mm.'

1485 "I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.'
Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.'

1485 "Three to five''
Reply "Yeah.'

The full interview:

P.J. POLICE FILES: DAVID PAYNE ROGATORY (mccannpjfiles.co.uk)

[cobalt]

'The theory was not capable of being developed because the bent detective was quite properly removed from the case.'

After considerable political pressure according to Amaral, whose book is still available in Portugal but has not, so far as I am aware, for sale in the UK. The McCanns' legal challenges in respect of Amaral were both unsuccessful.

'The parents were not investigated by the British Police because there was nothing to investigate.'

Astonishingly, given the outcome, they were not even investigated for child neglect which they had effectively admitted. Amaral speaks in detail regarding information regarding the McCanns and their friends which was not forwarded by UK police to the PJ.

'The German police are convinced that Brueckner murdered Madeleine.'

If they are 'convinced' then it is surprising they have yet to charge him with the offence. Their investigation as reported has all the hallmarks of hoping something turns up.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The theory was taken very seriously by the PJ as the questions put to Kate McCann show clearly. The theory was not capable of being developed so the case remains unsolved, which means the PJ are in no position to pour cold water over any other theory such as child abduction. The British authorities were acting under pressure from the then PM, Gordon Brown, to help the parents rather than investigate them. The German police understandably want Breuckner banged up for life since he is due for release in a couple of years.

The theory was taken seriously by the Portuguese as long as their chief detective was a dishonest policeman who had an obsession with children being stored in refrigerators.

The theory was not capable of being developed because the bent detective was quite properly removed from the case.

The parents were not investigated by the British Police because there was nothing to investigate.

The German police are convinced that Brueckner murdered Madeleine.

That is as good a reason as it is possible to cite for not investigating the McCanns.

[cobalt]

'If Madeleine died that afternoon, where do you suppose she was when David Payne is reported to have visited at about 6 pm.?'

The sniffer dog alerts indicate that the girl was still inside the apartment for at least a couple of hours.

'And if his visit did not take place, does that mean he is part of a conspiracy to make the McCanns appear to be innocent?'

Yes. It's possible the visit did take place but not as described either by himself or Kate McCann. Payne was considered to be the person closest to the McCann family and had been the main organiser of the holiday. The significance of his being the last independent witness who saw the child alive is central to the abduction theory, so the serious disagreement over how long this visit took cannot easily be explained.

'And if such a theory is credible, why is it not being considered by the British, German or Portuguese police forces, and why are they instead focusing on a criminal child molester?'

The theory was taken very seriously by the PJ as the questions put to Kate McCann show clearly. The theory was not capable of being developed so the case remains unsolved, which means the PJ are in no position to pour cold water over any other theory such as child abduction. The British authorities were acting under pressure from the then PM, Gordon Brown, to help the parents rather than investigate them. The German police understandably want Breuckner banged up for life since he is due for release in a couple of years.

[Darryl Kenyon]

The PJ didn't know their arse from their elbow and you are still peddling this which has been discredited since the files were released in 2009. The shutters and window could be opened from outside. The forensics was shoddy and haphazard- those brushing for evidence didn't even wear gloves or protective clothing. The shutters were not jemmied but Gerry in the initial hours felt they must have been because his assumption was they had been locked into place. They hadn't. His assumption was wrong. Are you stuck in a timewarp 2008/09 that you refuse to come out of?

Hi Sunny
I believe you are right about the fingerprint procedure on the window , no gloves etc . I am not saying you are wrong that the window could be unlocked from the outside SD but looking at a photo, the window does appear to have what looks like a handle in the middle of the two panes on the material separating the panes with maybe a lock.
Apologies if I am wrong regarding this . Also I am sure I have seen somewhere that the shutters could be partially lifted from the outside but not locked into position at the top . Again apologies if I am wrong.

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

... suspicion the visit was artificially constructed to confirm that Madeleine McCann was alive at a time when she was not.

Am I the only one here who thinks that is farfetched?

If Madeleine died that afternoon, where do you suppose she was when David Payne is reported to have visited at about 6 pm.?

And if his visit did not take place, does that mean he is part of a conspiracy to make the McCanns appear to be innocent?

And if such a theory is credible, why is it not being considered by the British, German or Portuguese police forces, and why are they instead focusing on a criminal child molester?

[rjpalmer]

Sorry for being a trifle rude in my previous reply, Kenyon. I can't disprove the possibility of an abduction but I think the theory that any abductor entered or left by the window has been disproved by the PJ.

An intruder/burglar could have opened the window, even if he never used it. There's a number of reasons why this could have occurred, including a confederate outside the building that he was in contact with.

Further, a male friend of the McCanns supposedly checked on the room and heard something like a child rolling over in bed, but didn't actually look inside the bedroom (obviously, he was a lousy security guard).

If he is telling the truth and what he actually heard was the intruder, the intruder could have silently opened the window to make his escape if necessary, but then didn't bother once he heard the man leave again.

[cobalt]

Sorry for being a trifle rude in my previous reply, Kenyon. I can't disprove the possibility of an abduction but I think the theory that any abductor entered or left by the window has been disproved by the PJ.


'I would like to hear from those who do not accept that Madeleine was abducted between 9.05 p.m. and 10 p.m. on 3 May 2007,
when approximately they think she really went missing.'

Some time between her last being seen at the creche and the alarm being raised at around 10pm. David Payne's visit to the McCann apartment at around 6pm is important as corroboration that Madeleine was alive at that time. But the reason for his visit seems unclear and there are doubts it ever occurred. Mrs. McCann says it lasted 30 seconds and she was wearing a towel, having just taken a shower. But mothers generally don't take even a quick a shower out of sight and hearing of three very young children, especially since there was presumably no great urgency for her to do so. She could have waited for her husband to return.

Payne himself remembered the visit as lasting 30 minutes, but was vague as to what the children were wearing. This mix up between 30 seconds and 30 minutes sounds like a verbal miscommunication rather than a total misjudgement of time, leading to suspicion the visit was artificially constructed to confirm that Madeleine McCann was alive at a time when she was not.

[Sunny Delight]

The PK found nothing. There was the lack of fingerprint evidence but also no evidence anyone had been inside the apartment. The basis for this was that no lichen had been disturbed from the ledge outside, nor was there any evidence of anyone in contact with the bedding. This was apart from the fact the shutters had not been 'jemmied.'

Anyone who is still talking about windows is, embarrassingly, not familiar with the case. They are serving as a distraction.

The PJ didn't know their arse from their elbow and you are still peddling this which has been discredited since the files were released in 2009. The shutters and window could be opened from outside. The forensics was shoddy and haphazard- those brushing for evidence didn't even wear gloves or protective clothing. The shutters were not jemmied but Gerry in the initial hours felt they must have been because his assumption was they had been locked into place. They hadn't. His assumption was wrong. Are you stuck in a timewarp 2008/09 that you refuse to come out of?

[Darryl Kenyon]

The PK found nothing. There was the lack of fingerprint evidence but also no evidence anyone had been inside the apartment. The basis for this was that no lichen had been disturbed from the ledge outside, nor was there any evidence of anyone in contact with the bedding. This was apart from the fact the shutters had not been 'jemmied.'

Anyone who is still talking about windows is, embarrassingly, not familiar with the case. They are serving as a distraction.

Hi Cobalt
Thanks for the reply . Although I don't concur with your view on the abduction . The window evidence is interesting none the less

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I would like to hear from those who do not accept that Madeleine was abducted between 9.05 p.m. and 10 p.m. on 3 May 2007,
when approximately they think she really went missing.

[cobalt]

The PK found nothing. There was the lack of fingerprint evidence but also no evidence anyone had been inside the apartment. The basis for this was that no lichen had been disturbed from the ledge outside, nor was there any evidence of anyone in contact with the bedding. This was apart from the fact the shutters had not been 'jemmied.'

Anyone who is still talking about windows is, embarrassingly, not familiar with the case. They are serving as a distraction.