The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[Errata]

In 1942, the merchant ship Virginia was sunk in the mouth of the Mississippi River by the U-507 with the loss of 26 mariners so German u-boats were in the area. They also blew up a dock when one of the torpedoes missed the Virginia and hit land.

Yes, but supposedly we are talking about it being somewhere between Memphis and Minneapolis, theoretically around St. Louis. Which is not bright. I mean, it's hard to say nice things about the Nazis, but they were meticulous about military resources. It's hard to picture them wasting a U-Boat by sending it up the worst possible river for submarine traffic.

[Adam Went]

Stan:

I've heard of there being secret stashes of gold and valuables to help support escaped Nazi war criminals, but buried in Antartica? Really? It wouldn't have been much use to them there! South America is probably the most likely scenario given how many of them lived and/or were found there in later decades. There's always been rumours that Martin Bormann was another one who made his way there, despite supposedly dying in Berlin in the first days of May 1945.

It's a wonder that Doenitz wasn't questioned more closely about all of this, especially given that he spent 10 years in Nuremberg....

Errata:

Interesting. Has there ever been an attempt, or any plans to attempt using underwater metal detection instruments to see if there is anything like a submarine in the area?

Cheers,
Adam.

[sdreid]

What sort of lock and dam system was in place on the Mississippi River in the early 1940s?

[Errata]

Errata:

Interesting. Has there ever been an attempt, or any plans to attempt using underwater metal detection instruments to see if there is anything like a submarine in the area?

Cheers,
Adam.

Sure. The problem is that half of the cargo containers made since the 17th century seem to be at the bottom of the Mississippi. You can stand on the shore at any location and point to sunken barges. The problem is not so much whether or not there are boats at the bottom of the Mississippi, as much as how do you distinguish the million or so sunken cargo barges from a U-Boat.

And it's been like 60 years. I would think thats enough time for Germany to screw up it's courage and ask for the dang thing back. Unless they blew it up during the war... there is that version also.

[Errata]

What sort of lock and dam system was in place on the Mississippi River in the early 1940s?

To the best of my knowledge (which is limited) not much of one. It is and was a heavily used waterway, and pretty stable, water level wise. The Mississippi is not in area of the country that uses either hydro-electric power, or any significant irrigation. The problem with the Mississippi is that it is sandy bottomed, and the sand shifts. Thus the whole "Mark Twain" thing on the river. The sandbars shifted regularly enough to require a person constantly checking depth.

I have been in a good many cities on that river and to my knowledge I have never seen a dam. A: I could have missed it and B: that doesn't mean there didn't used to be. Although I do know that there is a lot of money in paddlewheel and flatboat casinos and cruises, which I would imagine would be less attractive on a regularly dammed river.

[Ben]

It's a wonder that Doenitz wasn't questioned more closely about all of this, especially given that he spent 10 years in Nuremberg....

Spandau

[sdreid]

What sort of lock and dam system was in place on the Mississippi River in the early 1940s?

There is a lock and dam about 100 miles north of St. Louis but I don't know about south of there. I know that much because I've taken a houseboat up the Mississippi, sometimes at the wheel, and we turned around there because we didn't want to take the trouble to go through the locks. They don't want to go to the expense to run pleasure craft through the locks so you usually have to wait until a barge comes along and then you go in and out with them, if there's room. Of course if the wickets are down, you can go straight through but they were up that day.

[YankeeSergeant]

U.S.S. Cyclops

Hi Shangas and Celeste,

Titanic is the epitome of a great disaster. Occasionally I have mentioned it on this board, and I have read at least five books on the subject (it's like Jack the Ripper - you can build a whole library just on that subject). Have you used their main website: Encyclopedia Titanica. I've looked it over and it is full of information and discussion boards, similar to the Casebook.

As for other leading shipwrecks:

R.M.S. Lusitania - carrying armaments or not when sunk?

R.M.S. Empress of Ireland - the forgotten big disaster of the 1912 - 1915 period. It's commander, Henry Kendall, is better known for helping to trap Dr. Crippen and Ethel Le Neve on his earlier Canadian-Pacific steamer command, R.M.S. Montrose.

U.S.S. Cyclops - where did this collier sink, and how? Or did the German born Captain turn it over to the enemy (it disappeared in 1918)?

H.M.S. Victoria - the battleship that was rammed by a badly given order in maneuvers in 1893 (and was spoofed in a sequence in the movie KIND HEARTS AND CORONETS in 1949).

There is also possible discussions on ships like the C.S.S. Hunley and U.S.S. Monitor, both of which are presently restored in total or partial state in Charleston and at Hampton Roads.

There is plenty to discuss here.

Best wishes,

Jeff

SPlendid thread and I like the quote Shanga! With regards to the USS Cyclops, there were some minor bits of flotsom found. This is one of those "Mysteries" that happens on occasion much like the USS MAine Where the hype outweighs the fact. The explosion on the USS Miane was in my opinion caused by coal dust igniting. A supposition supported by recent investigation in spite of the initial reports blaming the Spanish. The Cyclops went down in bad weather and given she was transporting coal very well could have suffered the same fate as the Maine. Big Lucy was in fact carrying at the very least small arms from the United States and while Germany was the culprit there is a case to be made that both the U.S. and Britain bear some burden in the fact that weapons were aboard the vessel

[YankeeSergeant]

HMS Birkenhead

Another forgotten martime disaster is the sinking of the SS. Antinoe, and that one really is heroic.

In 1926, the SS. President Roosevelt sailed out of New York Harbour, setting a course for Germany. The weather was rough and stormish. When they were out at sea, the crew of the Roosevelt recieved news via wireless, that another ship, the SS. Antinoe, was in serious trouble and in danger of foundering. The Roosevelt jotted down the Antinoe's position and immediately steamed to the rescue.

The Roosevelt found the Antinoe rolling in heavy seas, with the crew, though perfectly alright under the circumstances, trapped aboard their vessel, unable to launch lifeboats and escape, due to the rough conditions.

The captain of the Roosevelt decided to send a lifeboat and men over to the doomed ship several times, but this failed due to the weather, resulting in the loss of six of the Roosevelt's boats, and two of its crew.

The captain was determined not to leave the men to drown at sea, and sent a wire to his company in New York City, saying that he was attempting a rescue-mission and would stay alongside the Antinoe until such time as the men were rescued, or until such time as the ship sank and the rescue would be fruitless.

Unknown to the captain, this simple telegram caused a storm, and soon newspapers and journalists were desperate for news. It also caused a storm at the offices of the United States Lines offices.

In those days, as it is today, time means money. The longer a ship stayed at sea, the more money it would cost the company. The captain of the Roosevelt knew this, but he threw it to the wind.

On Thursday, 28th of January, 1926, the weather had finally calmed down. Captain Fried of the Roosevelt deemed it safe to try another rescue, after staying by the Antinoe's side for three and a half days.

This time, rescue was successful and the captain of the Antinoe, a man named Tose, ordered that the married men amongst his crew be the first to be towed to safety. Eventually, everyone, including Tose, were rescued, and the Antinoe left to the mercy of the waves. Fried radioed his offices in New York with the results of his mission and sailed onto Germany.

When the crew of the Roosevelt next docked in New York City, they recieved a hero's welcome and a tickertape parade.

Don't forget the HMS Birkenhead whic foundered near South Africa. The British Army contingent stationed aboard went down (willingly) with the vessel to allow the civilians aboard, mostly women and children to get off safely.

[YankeeSergeant]

A night to Remember

Hi Shangas, Jeff, and All,

Was A Night to Remember based on solely on Archibald Gracie's book, or was it taken from more than one book? I've been reading Gracie's book, rather slowly though, and I'm to the opening of the investigation.

Did anyone see the documentaries where they found part of the hull of the Titanic and the companion one where they dove on the Britannic and found some of the same defects in the two ship? I can't remember the name of the programs, but they ran on our History Channel and I think it was either Underwater Detectives or Underwater Archaeologists or something like that.

Celesta, it was based on Robert Lord's book of the same title.

[YankeeSergeant]

Comet

Bloody hell that's good we're flying Turkish Airlines nest month (aka Buddy Holly Airlines) aaaaagh!

They solved the problem with the comets with the later variants and pulled the earlier types from service. How are things in Portsmouth Suze?

[YankeeSergeant]

NIght to remember

Graham:

I do agree with you that A Night To Remember is more factually accurate, and a very good film overall - despite the fact that it doesn't show the Titanic splitting in half, as Cameron's film does (excusable as obviously the ship hadn't yet been discovered in 1958 when ANTR came out.)

I'm not a huge fan of Cameron's Titanic, but it's not as bad as some make it out to be, and more importantly, James Cameron is a good person and genuinely cares about the Titanic and its people. When 96 year old last Titanic survivor Millvina Dean was struggling to meet her nursing home expenses and was starting to have to sell her autograph and Titanic memorabilia just to make ends meet, Cameron, along with others, donated tens of thousands of dollars of their own money to her to make sure she could live the rest of her life out more than comfortably. He also returned to the wreck in the early 2000's to film Ghosts Of The Abyss, a truly excellent film.

Suzi:

Wow, what a fascinating family story!

Cheers,
Adam.

Given the fact that no-one knew exactly what happend when they filmed A Night to Remember, they did a splendid job. They weren't aware at the time that the ship had split in two if I remember correctly. The Breaking was confirmed when Ballard finally located the wreck in the 1980s and was able to dive on her.

[YankeeSergeant]

Coal?

Hi Adam,

Thanks for noting my interest (and Errata's), regarding ships and shipwrecks.
Long before my interest in crime and Whitechapel, I was fascinated by ships and the Titanic in particular.

I think the wreck of the burned up Morro Castle was scrapped after 1934.

The speed of the wreck of the "Lusy" is amazing. The torpedo may have set off coal dust, and lower deck portholes were prematurely opened (the same may have happened to the Britannic in 1916 too). Ballard was able to show that there was no secret hoard of cannon ammunition (just a small consignment of rifle ammunition) on the ship. Also Schweger only used one torpedo, and was amazed by the confusion on board the vessel and the speed of the sinking.

I did not know of the boy on that picnic.

Best wishes,

Jeff

Jeff, Was "Big Lucy powered by coal? I though for some reason (And I may be wrong) that she was oil driven.

[Adam Went]

Errata:

Seems that modern day Germans like to distance themselves as much as possible from the events of World War II though, which is perhaps fair enough too in some ways. It's an interesting story nonetheless and wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some elements of truth to it.

YS:

No, nobody knew for certain what condition the wreck was in until Ballard & co discovered it in 1985 - interestingly, it's come out since then that Ballard was funded on his Titanic expedition by the US Navy only because he was a naval officer and was made to complete top secret expeditions to the Thresher and (IIRC) Squalus submarine wrecks to make sure the Soviets hadn't been nosing around them (given that the Cold War was still on at the time) - there's a couple of doccos out about it, fascinating stuff and worth checking out if any of you ever get the chance.

In 1912, some eyewitnesses to the sinking claimed that they saw the ship breaking up on the surface, others didn't say that - fairly solid proof, IMO, that the structure of the ship was still attached when it went underwater but was torn apart into two major sections during the long descent to the bottom.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Errata]

No, nobody knew for certain what condition the wreck was in until Ballard & co discovered it in 1985 - .

Funny story: My grandfather was in the Coast Guard, and wrote a significant portion of the Search and Rescue information for the north Atlantic. Because the Coast Guard does the Ice Patrol up there, they are the ones who drop the wreath every year on the anniversary of the Titanic sinking. So one year in the late 60s, my grandfather does the math, and tells the ice patrol where the Titanic likely was. Just so they could drop the wreath in the right place. A certain Commander Dixon (I think) laughed at my grandfather, told him he was wrong, an idiot, and should stick to to helicopters (he was also a test pilot)

I remember watching Ballard's expedition on tv, the first images. I was at my grandparents house, and my grandfather and I were riveted. Ballard deliberately did not give out the location of the wreck at that time. All the sudden my grandfather starts scribbling out numbers and weird math, jumped up out of his chair and shouted "F@&% you Dixon! I told you you smug bastard!"

This from the man who won $500 dollars in the lottery and said "Oh? Well, okay I guess". Not a demonstrative man.

Evidently my grandfather was only off by 1 mile to the south. And he admitted that most of his calculations were based on theories and what ifs, but he nigh nailed it. And evidently Commander Dixon's dismissal of his skill preyed on him for the next twenty something years, until he was vindicated by Ballard. Good think Dixon was already dead, or my grandfather would have been unlivable.