The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[sdreid]

Being a race fan, I might as well throw in the SS Vestris that sank off the east coast of the U.S. in November of 1928 with loss of 114. Two Indianapolis 500 drivers, Norm Batten and Earl DeVore, were on board with some racing cars they were hoping to run in Argentina while the tracks were snowed over up here. The ship capsized probably from a combination of overloading and high seas. Both drivers were said to have saved several people before they died. Batten drowned and DeVore was eaten by a shark as the crew looked on refusing to help.

[Errata]

No doubt you've heard the story of George Henderson, the young lad who was picknicking with his family at the Old Head of Kinsale while the Lusitania was sinking?

Wasn't there some tale about a boiler man or something who was on both the Titanic and the Lusitania?

And have you ever read the testimony of the Captain of the Storstad, the boat who hit the Empress of Ireland? I don't know anything about boats, except that I won't get on one.(My mom gave me A Night to Remember to read when I was like, 10) But I've asked people who know boats to explain that man's decision to me and they can't do it. It's like he thought magic was suddenly going to apply. It's really bizarre.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Jeff:

Yeah I think you're right about Lusy, whatever it was clearly was enough to sink the boat before most people even knew what had happened - I understand that the power went out almost instantly after the second explosion as well, so they had no real control over the boats direction and, obviously, no electricity. George Henderson said he thought at the time that it was strange that the boat seemed suddenly to be heading straight towards them!

Apologies if i've asked this before, but have you (and everybody else) seen Ghosts Of The Abyss?

If you ever get the chance to get a copy of Bob Ballard's "Exploring The Lusitania" (highly recommend it), Henderson's story is in there.

Stan:

Fascinating story but terrible about the shark attack.
When the Britannic sank in 1916 there was only 30 or so casualties, and IIRC nearly all of those were because panicking crew had launched a couple of lifeboats while the boat was still moving and they had ultimately been sucked into the propellers, which were just raising to the surface of the water. Terrible fate.

Of course there was also our very own S.S. Princess Alice, which I wrote an article about last year in Casebook Examiner - took just 4 minutes to sink after being more or less split in two. She was also raised very shortly afterwards, more than anything because the remains lay in the shallow water and were blocking seafaring traffic through the Thames.

Errata:

Not sure about the boiler man but I know there was a lady, a nurse I believe, who travelled on both Titanic and Lusitania. Can't think of the name off the top of my head (for some reason Violet Jessop rings a bell but don't quote me, she might have been from the Britannic and i'm getting wires crossed) - seem to recall that she was also on board the Olympic when it had a collision with the HMS Hawke and sustained some pretty major damage.

Might have read the testimony of Storstad's captain at some point but can't remember it now. I know fog was again the major culprit though, in the terrible conditions of the St. Lawrence River, and she took even less time than Lusitania to go down!

Why no travel on boats? They're safer than aeroplanes.

Meanwhile, here's one you'll all enjoy - for just $60,000 USD you can dive to the Titanic to be with her for the centenary memorial next year. Check it out:

http://www.wildwings.co.uk/wwtitanic11.html

Lucky people who will be doing that!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Ben]

The Vestris had also caught fire in 1919 and was consequently run aground off the coast of North Carolina. On board was Norman Campbell Chambers, who survived the Titanic disaster in lifeboat #5, where he offered the use of his pistol to tennis pro Karl Behr "should the worst come to the worst".

All the best,
Ben

[sdreid]

I believe its coal shifted in the high seas which caused the Vestris to develop a critical list that only increased as water began to wash the deck.
According to reports all 13 children aboard and most of the women were lost because their lifeboats were too close and were sucked under when the ship finally turned over and went down. DeVore's 18-year-old son, Billy, did survive and went on to compete in several Indianapolis 500s, last entering in 1954. He died in 1985. There were several lawsuits as the result of the actions of the captain, who went down with his ship, and the crew.

[Errata]

Hey all,
Errata:

Might have read the testimony of Storstad's captain at some point but can't remember it now. I know fog was again the major culprit though, in the terrible conditions of the St. Lawrence River, and she took even less time than Lusitania to go down!

The captain of the Storstad is the reason she went down so fast. He hit the Empress of Ireland, knocking a small hole in her and locking the two boats together. At which point the Captain of the Storstad decided that in order to prevent the Empress of Ireland from sinking, he needed to "plug the hole in her with his own ship. So he directed the Storstad to drive forward into the hole, and broke her in half. I can't imagine how he thought that was going to work.

[Mayerling]

Hey all,

Jeff:

Yeah I think you're right about Lusy, whatever it was clearly was enough to sink the boat before most people even knew what had happened - I understand that the power went out almost instantly after the second explosion as well, so they had no real control over the boats direction and, obviously, no electricity. George Henderson said he thought at the time that it was strange that the boat seemed suddenly to be heading straight towards them!

Apologies if i've asked this before, but have you (and everybody else) seen Ghosts Of The Abyss?

If you ever get the chance to get a copy of Bob Ballard's "Exploring The Lusitania" (highly recommend it), Henderson's story is in there.

Stan:

Fascinating story but terrible about the shark attack.
When the Britannic sank in 1916 there was only 30 or so casualties, and IIRC nearly all of those were because panicking crew had launched a couple of lifeboats while the boat was still moving and they had ultimately been sucked into the propellers, which were just raising to the surface of the water. Terrible fate.

Of course there was also our very own S.S. Princess Alice, which I wrote an article about last year in Casebook Examiner - took just 4 minutes to sink after being more or less split in two. She was also raised very shortly afterwards, more than anything because the remains lay in the shallow water and were blocking seafaring traffic through the Thames.

Errata:

Not sure about the boiler man but I know there was a lady, a nurse I believe, who travelled on both Titanic and Lusitania. Can't think of the name off the top of my head (for some reason Violet Jessop rings a bell but don't quote me, she might have been from the Britannic and i'm getting wires crossed) - seem to recall that she was also on board the Olympic when it had a collision with the HMS Hawke and sustained some pretty major damage.

Might have read the testimony of Storstad's captain at some point but can't remember it now. I know fog was again the major culprit though, in the terrible conditions of the St. Lawrence River, and she took even less time than Lusitania to go down!

Why no travel on boats? They're safer than aeroplanes.

Meanwhile, here's one you'll all enjoy - for just $60,000 USD you can dive to the Titanic to be with her for the centenary memorial next year. Check it out:

http://www.wildwings.co.uk/wwtitanic11.html

Lucky people who will be doing that!

Cheers,
Adam.

I'm going to try to write some of this again. The way this site cuts into long replies is really aggrevating.

I wrote to Walter Lord once and he replied (I still have his letter). The crewman supposedly on Titanic, Lusitania, and Empress of Ireland was Frank "Lucky" Towers. I questioned the chances of such a triple survival. However, Lord checked into it, and Lord found that no crewman of that name was on any of those three liners. It is therefore an urban legend.

Violet Jessup was a member of the crews of those three sisterships, and wrote of her experiences on Olympic, Titanic, and Britannic.

Vestris is an interesting disaster - and it produced two photos I always was fascinated by - one of the passengers looking terrified on the sloping deck, and the other of the ship (taken from the stern) just before the last plunge.
They rank up there with the photos of the sinking Andrea Doria.

The controversy of the Storstad and Empress was the matter of each ship claimint they saw the lights of the other ship on the correct side for passing before the collision. But they gave the wrong side and lights for both ships when describing these. Possibly the fog had something to do with this.

Jeff

[Adam Went]

Ben:

Sounds similar to Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon and his offer to give the crew a fiver to replace their kits which they'd lost in the sinking, and this being popularly seen as a bribe of some sort. It was the Duff Gordon's boat which had capacity for 40 people and left the ship with 12. Must say I don't think Sir Cosmo did anything wrong, though he never lived it down - J. Bruce Ismay is another story.

Stan:

So the old saying that "A GOOD captain goes down with his ship" isn't quite so true in that case, eh?

Errata:

Yeah, sounds very much like an instinct "what the hell have I done?" type reaction. The Empress was on her side before most people even knew what had happened.

Mayerling:

Thanks for the info about Frank Towers. Lucky man indeed! Ghosts Of The Abyss was dedicated to Walter Lord who died around the time that it came out - his book "A Night To Remember" and the film that it spawned remain two of the great pieces of Titanic media ever, more than 50 years on.

Empress and Andrea Doria suffered very similar fates in terms of their collisions - fortunately for Andrea passengers, she took some 11 hours to sink and there was no great loss of life, unlike the Empress - if a ship like that sinks in 14 minutes, sadly it's going to be a massive loss of life.

Cheers,
Adam.

[sdreid]

I remember seeing the pictures of the Andria Doria sinking on the evening news on the day.

It was in a Rod Serling's Night Gallery episode about a guy who always winds up with doomed ships also, if I remember correctly - Titanic, Lusitania and, in the final scene, Andria Doria.

According to some reports, Vestris was the last ship to contact USS Cyclops in 1918 before it vanished so it sounds almost like the same deal.

[Adam Went]

Stan:

Andrea Doria was probably a bit of a wake up call that modern technology isn't infallible, given that she was one of the first major sinkings of the passenger liners that were fitted with radar. Taking 11 hours to sink meant that there was a lot of drama to play out and no doubt you would have seen the same images then as documentary shows replay now, those taken from planes overhead....

Remember reading as well that Calamai, the Captain, never forgave himself for what had happened till his dying day - he didn't even want to leave the ship as it was sinking. Much like William Turner of the Lusitania.

Cheers,
Adam.

[sdreid]

Andrea Doria was probably a bit of a wake up call that modern technology isn't infallible, given that she was one of the first major sinking of the passenger liners that were fitted with radar. Taking 11 hours to sink meant that there was a lot of drama to play out and no doubt you would have seen the same images then as documentary shows replay now, those taken from planes overhead....

Yes Adam, I think it is probably the same footage.

Another sinking that's interested me is that of the Brazilian scout cruiser Bahia which went down on July 4 of 1945 with the loss of about 350 sailors, reportedly from an accidental explosion. There is conjecture that it was actually sunk by one of the rogue German u-boats that refused to surrender when their country did and that this was hushed up to prevent a panic. The most notable were the U-530 that did not surrender until it pulled into port in Argentina on July 10 of 1945, more than two months after Germany surrendered and 6 days after the Bahia sunk and the U-977 that didn't surrender, also in Argentina, August 17 of 1945, more 6 weeks after the sinking, 15 weeks after Germany gave up and two days after Japan surrendered.

[Adam Went]

Stan:

The German U-Boat scenario is perfectly possible, given that as you say there were indeed U-Boats which were at sea at the time of the surrender who refused to obey their orders. There has actually been conjecture in the past that some of these last U-Boats could have been responsible for transporting high-ranking Nazi leaders who were fleeing Europe down to South America, including possibly the escaped Adolf Hitler himself. Not sure how much truth there is in all of it, but it's an interesting scenario!

Karl Doenitz was of course supreme commander of the U-Boat fleet as well as successor to Hitler after April 30, 1945, so it would be interesting to know whether he had given any "special instructions" to his remaining U-Boats in that time.... where's that conspiracy thread of yours!?

Cheers,
Adam.

[sdreid]

Hi Adam:

Yes, both the U-530 and U-977 have been mentioned as possible Hitler escape vessels. The U-977 was also said to have possibly gone to Antarctica to secretly bury tons of Nazi gold before making for Argentina to run up the white flag on August 17 of 1945.

[Errata]

The German U-Boat scenario is perfectly possible, given that as you say there were indeed U-Boats which were at sea at the time of the surrender who refused to obey their orders.

For some reason, it is generally accepted down here that there is a U-boat in the Mississippi River that got pretty far up before getting stuck on a sandbar. The story goes that that they all sat in this tin can 10 feet under the water and died rather than risk discovery. Depending on who you ask, the submarine was either destroyed by German agents, or is still in there, buried under the shifting sands of the river. Which ih possible since the Mississippi buries and unburies stuff all the time. The problem is, not one single fact has ever been applied to this theory, but everyone believes it.

[sdreid]

In 1942, the merchant ship Virginia was sunk in the mouth of the Mississippi River by the U-507 with the loss of 26 mariners so German u-boats were in the area. They also blew up a dock when one of the torpedoes missed the Virginia and hit land.