JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FISHY1118]

More excellent testimony that contradicts the Warren Commission. Its amaizing that all these witnesses have never been proven wrong !!! just accused of lying , being ,mistaken , complete idiots , or never exited .
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The two outriders to the President's left rear were shocked by being spattered with the President's blood and brain matter. The two Secret Servicemen in the car, one of them the driver, had to make vital decisions. Both, however, did have interesting comments on the shots. Agent Kellerman said later that the last sound he recalled was "like a double bang — bang! bang! ... like a plane going through the sound barrier." Agent Greer, the driver, also said the last shot cracked out "just right behind" its predecessor. This could conceivably mean the two agents heard a single bullet breaking the sound barrier, but It also suggests they heard two shots very close together indeed — far closer together than one man could achieve with a bolt-operated rifle. Agent Kellerman later expressed the opinion, based on what he heard and the wounds he saw later at the autopsy, that "there have got to be more than three shots."

In spite of being himself shot in the hail of gunfire, Governor Connally — himself an experienced hunter — remembered that because of the "rapidity" of the shots, "the thought immediate!) passed through my mind that there were two or three people involved, or more, in this; or that someone was shooting with an automatic rifle."

As for the bystanders nearest to the offside of the President'. car, one, Mary Moorman, made estimates ranging from two to four shots. Like those in the car, she was first preoccupied and then so panicky that she was distracted. (She was taking a photo. graph as the limousine approached and then threw herself to the ground, shrieking, "Get down! shooting!") –P.52 Conspiracy. Kellarman Bangbang. William Greer “Just right beind”



Let us presently read G.A. Bennett's testimony with reference to the number of shots fired. "Secret Service Agent Glen A. Bennett, stationed in the right rear seat of the President's followup car, who heard a sound like a firecracker as the motorcade proceeded down Elm Street. At that moment, Agent Bennett stated: "I looked at the back of the President. I heard another firecracker noise and saw that shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear of the President's head" (W-111). –P.4 False Mystery. Bang, Bang Bang. Secret Service agents describes seeing President shot in the back just before shot to the head.



If Governor Connally was not hit by the same first bullet to hit the President, then the Government's case is destroyed. The Government admits one shot missed (W-111). A separate shot removed the back of the President's head (W-199). This would constitute a minimum of four shots and would put the Government's theory that only three bullets were fired out of business. The explanation that the President and the Governor were fast hit by different shots conforms to the "substantial majority of the witnesses who stated that the shots were not evenly spaced. Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together..." (W-115). Governor Connally said he was hit at a point corresponding to frames 231 to 234 of the Abraham Zapruder films (W-105). If, as the Commission states, the President was hit no later than at frame 225, then this would indicate two separate shots hitting close upon one another. Since they were fired within 6 to 9 frames of one another, or according to photographer Willis 21 to 24 frames of one another, this represents a time interval of from 0.34 to 1.31 seconds. This time gap is insufficient to allow firing from the same bolt-action rifle and therefore points to the existence of another marksman. Needless to say, the majority view of the spectators that the last two shots were bunched, militates against a single carbine, bolt-action weapon doing all the firing. The time period between the first hit on the President and the final hit on him is not greater than 5.6 seconds according to the Commission's own findings. "As previously indicated, the time span between the shot entering the back of the President's neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds" (W-I17). Therefore, 5.6 seconds being the longest time span, if there were two hits on the President and one separate hit on Connally, there could not have been any bunching of two shots since the once^-accomplished 2.3 seconds minimum firing time could not permit bunching. –P.6 False Witness. Salandria on the problems with the shooting sequence with regard to the Single Bullet Theory. And Bunching of shots.


Hickey looked toward the president's car and saw that Kennedy was slumped

forward and to his left but trying to straighten himself up. Then, the agent wrote,

I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to

me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such

rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element

between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right

upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it

missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and

there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed

to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him

fall forward and to his left again. Possibly four or five seconds elapsed

from the time of the first report and the last.

At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and

picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the rear.

At this point the cars were passing under the over-pass and as a result

we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR 15 rifle ready as we

proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital. –P.549 Into the Nightmare. Bang, Bang Bang. Hickey version of the shooting he was located in the follow up car.



It's noteworthy that Hickey reports two of the shots were bunched tightly

together. This observation, similar to other eyewitness or earwitness accounts,

is a further indication that all the shots could not have been fired from a single

weapon, as the Warren Report has it. And Hickey's comments that the second and

third shots "appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and

were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element

between them" is a strong suggestion of coordinated crossfire. Other eyewitness

and photographic evidence indicates that there may have been two head shots fired

virtually simultaneously, but where the second would have been fired from remains

a mystery. With the first coming from Badge Man behind the retaining wall, the

second head shot may have come from behind the picket fence, or perhaps from

the Dal Tex Building behind the president's position and catercorner to the School

Book Depository at the end of Elm Street. An image of a man photographed in a

second-floor window of the Dal-Tex Building seems to show him holding some kind

of straight-lined object out the window. –P.549 Into the Nightmare. Good summation of crossfire.



As the motorcade approached in the middle lane of Elm, "I heard four shots; the first two sounded like they were behind the president with that shot from the knoll being different from the rest." When I asked what he meant by "different," he said it sounded, "I don't know, just different than the others, like it was a pistol or a different type of rifle or something."

"The third and fourth shots were very close together, almost at exactly the same second."

Holland said his eyes were focused directly on Kennedy when the "second, or possibly the third shot," caused the president's head to "suddenly lurch backward." At that moment, he said, his attention was immediately drawn to the left, straight to the far corner of the wooden fence on top of the knoll, from where he felt that shot, the "different" shot, had originated. "And I saw a puff of smoke come out from that corner and it didn't just hang there but it slowly drifted out under the trees and over the grassy area toward the street below."

The smoke, he added, traveled out about twenty feet from the fence and was located slightly behind a large tree on the knoll. Holland said he had been shown private and unpublished pictures that "confirm the presence of smoke coming from the knoll." He refused to discuss that tidbit further.

"How do you know it was smoke?" I questioned. I sensed the hawks drawing closer.

"I don't know what else it could have been. I've heard some people say that it was steam from a pipe that runs behind the fence. But there is no steam pipe back there. The only steam pipe is at the end of the underpass

there, which is far from the corner of the wooden fence where I saw the smoke.

"Me and some others ran around behind the fence and I made my way up to that corner, and when I got there, I saw footprints and cigarette

butts on the ground in the exact^e [his emphasis] spot where I had seen the

smoke come from."

"Were the footprint_s and cigarettes fresh, do you think?"

"It had rained that morning," Holland said, "and those cigarette butts were all dry. I looked close at them. And there were quite a few of them there."

Holland said the footprints he saw were the only ones along the entire length of the fence. "It appeared as if whoever was behind there had been there for a while and was pacing back and forth like a caged animal. There was the same kind of mud on the bumper of the car parked there and it looked like someone had been standing on it to look over the fence."

"Let's say there was someone there," I said. "How could that person get away so quickly?"

"It would have been very easy to jump into the trunk of one of those parked cars and be driven away later," Holland speculated.'

At this point, I grabbed a piece of paper and drew an L shape to depict the fence. I asked Holland to put an Xwhere he had seen the smoke. The mark he drew was, he said, about ten feet back from the corner on the long part of the L. He had me draw a line representing the bumper where he saw the muddy footprints. He said that vehicle was the third car in from the corner and was a "Pontiac station wagon, sandy or light brown in color, with a luggage rack." A white Chevrolet sat on one side of the station wagon, he said, and the muddy footprints on the ground seemed to come from the corner of the fence and pass between those two cars on their way into the parking lot beyond.

Holland admitted he rarely granted interviews, because he had been misquoted so often. "It started with the Warren Commission, which misused what I had told them in their Report. Then I wasn't too pleased with the way Mark Lane handled my interview. And that program for CBS ["CBS News Inquiry: 'The Warren Report,"' broadcast in June 1967] was very biased, especially concerning the statements I made. They only used certain parts of what I said and that didn't provide the whole story."

I assured him of my care. I showed him my notes, which he carefully read. "Are you writing a book?" he asked.

"No. I took notes only for my own memory."

He laughed. "You're too young to worry about that."

As we wallced out of the hotel, I asked Holland if he would mind retracing his steps for me from the underpass to the knoll. He paused, then said he was very busy, but if I ever got to Dallas another time, I should give him a call. –P. 79 The Girl on the Stairs. S.M Holland recollection of the shooting.



Mrs. Walther explained to me she initially thought and thus told authorities that the man with the rifle was on the "fourth or fifth floor because I just wasn't sure which it was at the time." But she said she dearly remembers that this man was on the floor directly above where "two colored men were hanging out a window looking at the motorcade." Her reference most likely was to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, who were in fact watching from the fifth-floor window of the Depository. This would have put the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, in the window from where the Warren Report said the shots originated."

She described that man as having light hair and wearing a white shirt.

"Next to the man with a rifle and in the same window was another man. I could only see him from about his waist up to his shoulders and never got a good look at his face. But there was definitely another man there."

That second man was wearing "a brown suit coat." Could she have been looking at the brown cardboard boxes that were stacked in that window?

"That's what the FBI accused me of doing," she answered. "But boxes don't move on their own, do they?"

Her point was taken. "Did you report this to anyone, a nearby policeman, your friend?"

"No, I didn't say anything. I thought this man was a guard or something and that they had guards everywhere. And just after I saw these two, someone yelled, 'Here they come,' and the president turned the corner and I stopped looking at the two men."

Mrs. Walther said she "heard four shots, and right after the last shot I saw this police officer drop his motorcycle and immediately run into the Depository." This would have been Marrion Baker.

She described the sounds as having a definite pause between the first and second shots. Then the second and third shot sounded as if they were fired "at the same time." After that there was another slight pause, and then she heard a fourth shot.

She moved across Houston and looked down Elm in the direction of the motorcade. She saw two children lying on the grass on the knoll and, thinking they may be injured, walked that way .¹² –P. 82 The Girl on the Stairs. Mrs. Walther recollection of the shooting mentions last two shots were almost at the same time.



When I inquired about the shots, he repeated what he had said to the Commission: they sounded as if they came from above, behind, and to the left.

"Above, behind, and to the left of what?" I asked.

"Above and behind the motorcade, and to the left of me," Hudson replied.

"But on the day of the assassination, you signed an affidavit that said the shots seemed to come from above and behind you. You said, 'Behind and above me.' And in your FBI interview, you said you felt the shots came from over your head."

Hudson remained silent.

"You said you heard three shots," I continued. 'Would you tell me about them?"

"Well, there were definitely three that I heard," he explained. "But one of them was a bit unusual."

"What do you mean, `unusual'?"

"Well, it sounded different from the others. It was louder, sharper, cleaner than the others. And fwo of them was close together, like, bang ... bang, bang."

"Is that what you told the Commission lawyer?"

Hudson gave me a knowing smile. I'm sure he sensed by now that I already knew what he had told the Commission: that the three shots had been evenly spaced.²'

"I stand by what I just said," he replied.

"So, during your testimony you clarified your earlier statements to say you felt the shots were actually coming from above and behind the president's car. Does that mean from the Depository?"

"No, but that is what the Commission wanted me to say," Hudson answered quickly. –P.121 The Girl on the Stairs. Mentions Bang, Bang Bang bunching and different sound from other shots.



"I do think the government wanted people to get on with their lives and out of the drama of the assassination and they did what they wanted.

"And I don't believe my testimony was ignored. It was discounted, which is entirely different. And even in Sandra's deposition [to the FBI in March 1964, a copy of which I had sent her], I see there was nothing that suggests they really wanted to know the timing. I actually think the Warren Commission needed to bring an end to the investigation.

"It is hard to understand that Sandra and I were both young ladies and we weren't into political things. Instead we were into having fun, meeting young men and making a living. This was really scary for us. If you can put yourself into our shoes, we had high-powered people playing `who dun it' and we were wanting to make sure they knew we didn't or didn't have a connection of any kind to anyone who did. That was pretty heady stuff for young women in those days."

I specifically asked if she remembered seeing Kennedy when she heard the first shot. "No," she answered, "because I did not see the limousine at that time. It was under the tree." As she gazed out the window, she said, the tree was "slightly to my right."

I then inquired about the sequence of shots. "As I remember," she wrote, "there was the first shot and then a pause and then the last two seemed very close together."

Ms. Adams told me she occasionally visited the second-floor lunchroom when she worked at the Depository, the scene of the Oswald/ Baker/Truly encounter. She always got there, she said, by going down the back stairs.

Did she happen to notice any activity in or around that lunchroom when she passed by on November 22? –P.252 The Girl on the Stairs. Victoria Adams mentions that the Limo was under the Tree and that she heard the first shot a pause and then two shots.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Taking these things together with the fact that he keeps his right hand holding the hat at shoulder level until at least 279

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Having both amicably accepted that we are on different paths in this discussion, I was interested in the statement above. Setting aside the SBT, there is a definite shot that hits Connolly in the back and emerged, from the photo of his coat, perhaps 15cm below his right nipple. I have a collection of Akubras and I am struggling to envisage how I might hold a hat in my right hand at shoulder level and be hit in the back of the wrist from a descending bullet emerging from below my right nipple. In fact, I am unable to comfortably hold a hat at shoulder level in a manner that would enable any shot from the rear to penetrate the back of my wrist unless I was turned to the right with the hat held up at shoulder level. This scenario is not immediately obvious in the ZF, and would seem to preclude the SBT.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Best regards, George

Edit: Oops, you may have already answered this question. I should have read further but have been away supporting my wife who has been undergoing surgery.

[Patrick Differ]

The latest scans were done in 2023.If you understand that technology is constantly changing than perhaps you might appreciate that it is usually a good thing. Unless you are technology averse.

60 year guilt trip? I guess it's not your history?

[cobalt]

Just like today if Oswald was on trial. The jury would take all of 5 minutes to decide him guilty.

Not much of a jury some might say, but then it's never wise to question the common sense wisdom of the average citizen. But wait....

When people say things like “why do 70% of the population go for a conspiracy and why don’t they trust the WC,” the answer is simple.

Sometimes the average citizen cannot be trusted to see the obvious truth! Where does that leave the justice system? No matter, the truth will out for....

I suspect that the tide will turn one day. Eventually people will see through the madness and the USA will finally be able to rid themselves of this totally unnecessary 60 year long guilt trip which has been imposed on them quite deliberately by a section of society who resort to this kind of thing to further their own political agendas.

A reassuring thought perhaps but beware, as a wise man wrote on here earlier:

It reminds me of those fundamentalists who repeatedly ‘predict’ the end of the world and then come up with a tissue of the most feeble of excuses as to why it didn’t happen.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We see a fair bit of not unexpected ‘wriggling on the hook’ going on here. Is there a single poster on either side that had a seconds doubt that Fishy was talking about the files that were about to be released by Trump (and now have been)? Of course he was. These were the ones, according to him that were going to prove conspiracy. And now that we know that they don’t the goalposts, again not unexpectedly, are being moved. And wasn’t this always going to be the case? There’s always going to be that ‘one file’ that’s still hidden in a cupboard somewhere proving conspiracy. It reminds me of those fundamentalists who repeatedly ‘predict’ the end of the world and then come up with a tissue of the most feeble of excuses as to why it didn’t happen.

Opinions aside I’m sure that most people believe that we should avoid obvious falsehoods used just to make a point. But here’s an obvious one posted without shame:

“You haven't ever , not once ,been able to explain why all the Dr's at parkland who saw and claimed on the day of the assassination mind you , the massive hole in jfks head that prove the fake autopsy photo to be exactly .... that FAKE.”

This is categorically, provably a falsehood. Not all of the Doctors said that they had seen a hole in the back of Kennedy’s head. I don’t have any figures to hand at the moment (perhaps Fiver can step in? It would be interesting to know exactly what majority mistakenly saw a rear head wound) but from memory I’d estimate something like 5 or 6 that didn’t. It was a minority of course, no one could deny that (but why should they be dismissed?) And do conspiracy theorists only selectively go with the majority? Because they don’t go with the 17 pathologists majority (including conspiracy theorist Cyril Wecht) who all unanimously said that the shots came from behind. And they don’t go with the majority of witnesses who all identified Oswald as the killer of Officer Tippit. And they don’t go with the majority of witnesses who felt that the shots came from the area of the TSBD. And they don’t go for the majority who said that they heard three shots. And what about when they support O’Connor just one from 32 to claim that Kennedy’s brain was missing.

So with this kind of ‘pick and choose’ attitude to the significance toward questions of majority and minority it’s a wonder that they so strongly support the Parkland Doctors despite the clear issues - mostly inexperienced/ the most traumatic experience of their lives(for which they had no time to prepare themselves/ totally focused on resuscitation and not a head wound/ located at different positions around the tables/ the back of Kennedy’s head not being visible/ blood and gore pooling around the base of the head becoming matted with hair might easily have been mistaken for a wound/ one of the main Doctors (Charles Carrico) said that it was ‘absolutely’ possible that they could have been mistaken.

When we look at this sensibly and without a fixation which passes the border of obsession we can see what is obvious. 17 pathologists/ photographs/ x-rays/ the Zapruder film against the above and it’s no contest. Technology trumps fallible witnesses every time. Imagine the police favouring a few witnesses over CCTV footage which proved the suspect 200 miles away. It wouldn’t happen. They would be drummed out of court. Just like today if Oswald was on trial. The jury would take all of 5 minutes to decide him guilty. But this is the level of sheer desperation the CT’s are reduced to. The photos, x-rays and Zapruder film have been checked numerous times thoroughly and no evidence of fakery had been found (and please don’t post that totally discredited documentary about the Zapruder film).

We knew that there would be no evidence of conspiracy in those files because Oswald was clearly a Lone Gunman and the Warren Commission was a thoroughly honest endeavour (although with shortcomings) When people say things like “why do 70% of the population go for a conspiracy and why don’t they trust the WC,” the answer is simple. It’s all that public hears. Conspiracy sells. Lone gunman are boring. The public have been saturated with this stuff. So much so that they assume that it’s true. It’s propaganda. People make a living from the conspiracy industry. It’s Vested Interest City. Conspiracy is the easiest sell these days. Big bad government…I know something you don’t know….poor victimised ‘little man’….convoluted plots and people are lining up to present their ‘scripts’ hence the absolutely barking mad ‘suspects’ like Rosco White and Mac Wallace (both 100% not involved in any way) and ‘witnesses’ who were never there like Beverley the B******tter Oliver.

I suspect that the tide will turn one day. Eventually people will see through the madness and the USA will finally be able to rid themselves of this totally unnecessary 60 year long guilt trip which has been imposed on them quite deliberately by a section of society who resort to this kind of thing to further their own political agendas.