Originally posted by Fiver
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The so-called ‘evidence’ is easily exposed, as you’ve just done Fiver. With all of these dodgy CT witnesses one question always comes to mind first for me - did this person ever run into Mark Lane? -
The Rifle and the Shells
The three shells that were found on the 6th floor were tested by Robert A. Frazier (FBI’s Washington Lab) and Joseph D. Nicol (Superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation for the state of Illinois) for the Warren Commission. They compared all microscopic marks that the bolt face and the firing pin of the rifle had left on the expended cartridge cases and compared the with cartridges cases expended when they test fired the rifle (Oswald’s rifle).
They concluded that the cartridges had been fired from Oswald’s gun to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. Fifteen years later a panel of firearms experts that sat for the HSCA reached an identical conclusion.
Conspiracy theorists, in their never ending obsession with exonerating the obviously guilty Oswald cite one of their huge ‘team’ of dodgy star witnesses, Deputy Sheriff Roger ‘looney’ Craig. He told the Press, five years after the assassination (as ever), that he’d seen the casings and that they were all facing in the same direction against the wall and that they were no more than three quarters of an inch apart. In 1971 however (in the manuscript of his unpublished book) and in true conspiracy mode, he claimed that they ‘looked’ as if they had been placed there and the three of them were no more than an inch apart. By 1975 Craig had increased the distance to ‘no more than two inches.’ A year later CT’s Gary Shaw and Larry Harris added on another inch so ‘about 3 inches apart). Craig’s nonsense (so beloved by CT’s) are easily exposed. We just need to see what he’d said to the Warren Commission in 1964. He heard someone call out that they had found shells and a couple of minutes later he went over for a look but he didn’t get too close. In the later interviews he’d claimed to have immediately gone over and examined them carefully. Asked if he recalled any of the shells being up against the wall he said “ No, I don’t. I didn’t look that close.”
Yup…we can dismiss this idiot without a second thought.
Fishy though tries to dismiss/smear Officer Weitzman when he changed his mind even though the circumstances were entirely understandable to anyone being remotely reasonable. He had looked into a gap between the boxes, not up close, and saw a rifle which looked like a Mauser; he heard someone else conclude the same so that’s the initial assumption that he made. He then found out that it wasn’t a Mauser. This was hardly error of the century because everyone agrees that the two weapons are easy confuse. But as Fiver has said, any error is leapt on by CT’s as being part of a plot. No one can make an honest mistake according to them. Frankly, it’s a more than a little childish approach. Craig, on the other hand, zigzags around like a looney and sees a mirage of Oswald 10 minutes after he’d left Dealey Plaza and yet this is the guy that Fishy prefers to support. Work that one out people. I can. It’s called confirmation bias. Incidentally, when the FBI tested where Carcano shells would have fallen they were found to have been entirely consistent with where the shells were actually found. So how lucky were our plotters when they planted them! In addition, Luke Mooney, who found the cartridges, said that it looked like they might have been ejected and then bounced off the cartons. Hardly consistent with Craig’s nonsense about planted cartridges all neatly lined up is it? And this is the same Craig who ‘saw’ Oswald get into a Nash Rambler in Dealey Plaza 10 minutes after he’d left. And who claimed that the police found a rifle on the roof (being guarded by a pink elephant called Gerald I believe) But of course, in their desperation to create a fictional plot conspiracy theorists don’t mind who they use. Proven liars and fantasists like Craig are welcomed. Ricky White, Ed Hoffman, Beverley Oliver all esteemed members.
And this guy is the source of the Mauser nonsense. There was no Mauser at the scene. End of story.
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The Bullet Fragments
Then we have the bullet fragments, two of which were found in the limousine on the night that Oswald killed Kennedy. A third set of fragments were found under Mrs Connally’s seat were too small to connect to Oswald’s rifle…more about these later.*
One of the larger pieces, recovered from the front seating compartment (on the driver’s seat, just to the right of the driver) was designated Exhibit No. 567. It was described as a piece of the copper metal jacket of a bullet with a part of the lead core still attached to it. It weighs 44.6 grains (a grain is a tenth of an ounce) which is less than a third of the weight of an intact Carcano bullet. Frazier and Nicol decided that there were sufficiently distinctive barrel markings for them to be compared using two microscopes side by side with one having on it the test bullets fired from Oswald’s rifle.
The experts identified the bullet fragments as having been fired in Oswald’s rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons. In 1978 a panel of 5 experts for the HSCA came to exactly the same conclusion.
The second fragment, designated Exhibit No. 569 was found on the floor to the right of the drivers seat. This one weighed just 21 grains and came from the base of a bullet. There was no lead core to this fragment, it was only jacket. Despite the fact that the bullet was badly mutilated, around a third of the surface was sufficiently undamaged to do a comparison test.
The experts concluded that the bullet came from Oswald’s rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons. And again, in 1978, the HSCA panel of 5 experts all arrived at exactly the same conclusion.
The experts had no way of finding out if the two fragments came from the same, or from two different bullets. What they did know for certain though was that bullets from Oswald’s rifle killed Kennedy without any possible doubt.
Exhibit No. 399, found on a stretcher at Parkland and fatuously labelled ‘the magic bullet’ by CT’s was also tested in exactly the same way.
It had been fired from Oswald’s rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world. The HSCA’s 5 man panel of experts concluded 100% in agreement. (All ‘in on it’ no doubt.)
If Only Conspiracy Theorists Would Use A Dictionary.
And of course, with no. 399 we get the myth of the ‘pristine bullet.’ This came from the one single Warren Commission photograph. This word has been bandied around on here so let’s just remind people of the definition of pristine: “in its original condition; unspoilt.” Ok, does this actually describe no. 399? The public got their first good view of the bullet in 1978 on the televised HSCA hearing where they photographs depicting the bullet from 4 views (two sides, front and base) The base view shows the bullet badly smashed into an ovoid shape. It’s also clear that lead is protruding. Ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan told the HSCA that this is exactly what happens when a bullet begins to deform. Some of the lead was actually missing which took the bullets weight from 161 grains down to 158.6 grains. This is demonstrably not a ‘pristine’ bullet. Any use of the word ‘pristine’ is evidentially dishonest. Michael Baden of the HSCA labelled ‘pristine’ as a ‘media description.’ He went on to say: “It’s like being a little bit pregnant - it is either pristine or it is not pristine. This is a damaged bullet…not a pristine one. This is a bullet that is deformed. It would be very hard to take a hammer and flatten it to the degree that this is flattened.”
He went on to explain that in its course through the President and Connally it “did not strike much that would cause it to be damaged.” It passed through soft tissue until it struck Connally’s 5th rib, a glancing blow on a very thin bone. The panel agreed that the likeliest cause of the flattening of the bullet was when it came into contact with the Governor’s lower forearm. The radius in the wrist are not very hard and can damage some bullets but no others. Dr. Charles Petty, Chief Medical Examiner of Dallas and a member of the HSCA’s Forensic Pathology panel, after being shown the pictures of the bullet, was asked if that bullet could have emerged from both Kennedy and Connally as described in that condition. He replied: “Yes, of course.” He was also asked if he had seen a bullet causing the kind of damage to Kennedy and Connally emerging in a similar way to the one on screen. His reply? “Yes, of course.”
Conspiracy theorists love pointing out the faults in the Warren Commission and I’m happy to mention one. They fired a bullet directly into the wrist of a cadaver which came out more damaged than c399. People like Lane and Wecht loved this of course as they rubbed their conspiracist hands together with glee. Of course you know that there’s a huge BUT coming. But..the WC were mistaken in using this experiment. I don’t mind accepting that they made a mistake. Dr. John Lattimer, who did tests himself on the rifle, told Gerald Posner:” …the Warren Commission did not conduct the proper experiments. They fired a 6.5mm (bullet) travelling at over 2000 feet per second directly into a wrist bone. Of course you are going to get deformation of the bullet when it strikes a hard object at full speed.” Larry Sturdivan, a physical scientist and wound ballistics expert said the condition of c399 was: “…direct proof that the bullet that struck Governor Connally’s wrist was not at high velocity.” This shows that the bullet that struck Connally had struck something else first, to have resulted in it slowing down. We wonder what that could have been?
Just to conclude this section with Dr. Petty (who was probably ‘in on it’ of course) said: “This is the behaviour of a full metal jacketed bullet, a bullet in all areas except the base by means of the firm, hard, tough, not easy to deform jacket.”
So the conclusion is inescapable and was confirmed by independent experts..c399 and the fragments all came from Oswald’s Mannlicher-Carcano.
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* The fragments found under Mrs Connally’s seat, in the Governor’s wrist and in Kennedy’s brain.
In May of 1964 FBI agent John F. Gallagher used neutron activation analysis to try and identify the origin of the fragments. This was the first time that the FBI had used this method (showing that even a year later these ‘in on it’ people were still trying to find more information) Two years later the FBI actually established their own NAA group. Gallagher went to a lab in Tennessee to carry out testing but, possibly in part due to inexperience, the results were inconclusive.
Dr. Nichols, who was a pathologist at the University of Kansas Medical Centre, tried for years to get Hoover and his successor Kelly to release the fragments for independent NAA testing but, even though he had Dr. Vincent Guinn, a professor of chemistry at the University of California’s Irvine campus on his side they had no luck. Where these two failed, the HSCA succeeded, and in 1977 they convinced the FBI to release the fragments for testing and for Guinn to try to determine whether c399 matched the fragments found in the limousine and those removed from Connally’s wrist.
Conspiracy time again - there were small differences in those minute samples (from the fragments) that were examined by Guinn compared to the samples examined by the FBI (which no longer existed because they were spectrographic analysis was partially destructive in nature and the minuscule remains were disposed of by the FBI.) CT’s almost boringly predictably cried ‘tampering.’ Vincent Bugliosi, being a proper investigator, found out from Guinn who had actually been in charge of the fragments. It was a James Geer of the National Archives in Washington. Bugliosi asked him: “What security measures were taken to guard the evidence while in the state of California?” Geer replied: “Well, all the time that I was working with the samples, every place that I went with samples in my possession, I had two armed guards (US Marshall’s) on either side of me.”
They were probably ‘in on it’ though of course.
Dr. Guinn found that Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition was quite unusual compared to others in that there was very little uniformity within a batch. This made the conditions more favourable for NAA testing compared to other ammunition which tended to be more uniform. Ten different samples were given to him for testing, all of which were identified by WC or FBI numbers. Three of these weren’t suitable for testing and the testing of another two provided only very basic information. The five specimens left were of much greater value though. They were - 1) c399, 2) c567 (one of the fragments from the front seat), 3) c843 (two fragments from Kennedy’s brain) 4) c842 (3 fragments from Connally’s wrist) 5) c840 (fragments found on the rug of the left jump seat)
All 5 samples, when subjected to NAA testing, produced a profile highly characteristic of the Western Cartridge Company’s Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition. More specifically, the results from the 5 fell into two very distinct groups. Two of those groups had a concentration of antimony of 800 parts per 1000000 while three had a concentration of 600 per 1000000. According to the experts this could only mean one thing…all five specimens had come from two bullets. There is no evidence of any more than two bullets according to science.
They concluded, through science, that the large fragment found in the limousine, the smaller fragment found on the rug and the fragments recovered from Kennedy’s brain all came from the same subject. THAT is proper evidence…not some junk clipped from the website of some conspiracy theorist. But it gets better….
The results also concluded that elemental composition and concentration of trace elements of the three fragments removed from Governor Connally wrist matched those of the second bullet….the bullet found on the stretcher. Proving, again by science, that conspiracist claims of planting are simply inventions, deliberately made to try and add weight to an invented conspiracy.
And as Fiver has often asked…if this bullet didn’t end up on Connally’s stretcher…where did it vanish too? No…science and reason kicks conspiracist inventions into the long grass.
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Your source appears to be lying again.Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
In his November 23 Affidavit, Worrell said "Yesterday afternoon at approximately 12:30 pm I was standing on the sidewalk against a building on the corner of Elm and Houston Streets watching the motorcade of the President. I heard loud noise like a fire cracker or gun shots. I looked around to see where the noise came from. I looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle sticking out of a window over my head about 5 or 6 stories up. While I was looking at the gun it was fired again. I looked back at Mr. Kennedy and he was slumping over. I got scared and ran from the location. While I was running I heard the gun fire two more times."
His Warren Commission testimony did not contradict his affidavit, nor did it contradict the appearance of a Carcano.
Mr. WORRELL - Well, when I heard the first shot it was to loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?
Mr. WORRELL - Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe at that time?
Mr. WORRELL - I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had - well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you can only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see --
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to observe any of the stock?
Mr. WORRELL - Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER - How much of the stock were you able to observe?
Mr. WORRELL - Just very little, just about 2 inches.
Mr. SPECTER - How many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock?
Mr. WORRELL - About 4 inches, I would say, not very much.Leave a comment:
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Your source claims the WC "never considered that more than one rifle had been found in the building? and yet it quote the WC doing just that.Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
Your source conveniently ignores that these rifles were also taken home, not left at the TSBD.Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the guns after that?
Mr. CASTER. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do with them after that?
Mr. CASTER. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever have them back in the Texas School Book Depository Building thereafter?
Mr. CASTER. They have never been back to the Texas School Book Depository Building since then.
Mr. BALL. Where were those guns on November 22, 1963?
Mr. CASTER. The guns were in my home, 3338 Merrell Road.
Your source also selectively quotes Shelly.
Mr. BALL. What happened to the guns?
Mr. SHELLEY. Well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he putts them back in the box and goes out of the door.
Mr. BALL. And did you ever see them again?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
So your ConspiracyOriginally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
* Shot JFK with a 30.06.
* Planted expended shells from Oswald's Carcano in the sniper's nest.
* Planted a Mauser on the 6th floor,
Who is running this Conspiracy - Moe, Larry, and Curly?
So the Conspiracy switched between three different rifles of different calibers made on different continents, let them be filmed and photographed by the news and thought no one would notice the difference?Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
Who is running this Conspiracy - Moe, Larry, and Curly?Leave a comment:
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