JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FISHY1118]

But your specific point wasn’t about evidence for conspiracy it was about evidence that wasn’t produced at the WC. I’m not aware of any. So could you please post some specific pieces of evidence so that we can discuss them.

What all over again!!!!

Surely your not serious?

[FISHY1118]

There is no evidence of conspiracy. Not a shred. But an absolutely mountain of evidence against Oswald which in any court of law on the planet would a got a guilty charge. A conspiracy isn’t just unlikely, it was absolutely impossible. It couldn’t have happened. Any conspirators that would have attempted this plan in this way and with all that was required would have been certifiable.

Yes there is .

A mountain of it as a matter of fact
Its just ignored.

Refer past post on the subject.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What all over again!!!!

Surely your not serious?

Yes I am. I’m not talking about later conspiracy theories which the WC could have known nothing about or witnesses that suddenly started ‘remembering’ things after 10 minutes with Mark Lane. What vital evidence was deliberately omitted by the WC. You only have to name a couple of examples. It would only take a few seconds to type on here which you could have done in the time that it took you to make your last 2 posts.

[FISHY1118]

Yes I am. I’m not talking about later conspiracy theories which the WC could have known nothing about or witnesses that suddenly started ‘remembering’ things after 10 minutes with Mark Lane. What vital evidence was deliberately omitted by the WC. You only have to name a couple of examples. It would only take a few seconds to type on here which you could have done in the time that it took you to make your last 2 posts.

So are telling me you can't remember one single thing that was mentioned that wasn't in the WC that we all been discussing over the recent weeks?

Cmon herlock .

[Herlock Sholmes]

So are telling me you can't remember one single thing that was mentioned that wasn't in the WC that we all been discussing over the recent weeks?

Cmon herlock .

That’s 3 posts that you’ve now spent time on Fishy. During that time you could have posted a couple of examples. Why haven’t you? I can’t think of a single important thing that was missed out by the WC.

[Fiver]

LBJ personal opinion regarding the magic bullet and why Oswald had to be found guilty by the WC are two separate points , it was political. You have to start from here to understand why and how he was found guilty by the WC.

I thought people were saying LBJ was part of the Conspiracy. Apparently he didn't get the memo about the Single Bullet Theory being an essential part of the plan.

Point 2. Thats because the evidence they were using demonstrated that he did shoot Kennedy ,they had no choice to think that way.

There is no evidence that anyone except Oswald shot JFK.

[Fiver]

Just to be clear about one thing: some of the Commission members rejected the Single Bullet Theory, as did Governor Connally.

That means they realised that there was more than one gunman and, consequently, a conspiracy.

At which point the same murderous Conspiracy that killed JFK also murdered Lyndon Johnson, John Connally, Richard Russell, Hale Boggs, and John Cooper to keep their secret.

Oh wait, the Conspiracy didn't.

Russell died of emphysema in 1971.
Boggs died in a plane crash in 1972.
Johnson died of a heart attack in 1973.
Cooper died in a retirement home in 1991.
Connally died of pulmonary fibrosis in 1993.

Okay, maybe the Conspiracy suddenly became squeamish for no apparent reason and bought off or threatened these prominent critics to publicly change their mind about the Single Bullet Theory.

Oh wait, the Conspiracy didn't do that, either.

Johnson, Connally, Russell, Boggs, and Cooper never changed their minds about the Single Bullet Theory.

It's almost as if the Conspiracy doesn't exist.

[Fiver]

Once you realise there was a conspiracy, certain things such as the empty cartridge cases being found conveniently in such a way as to incriminate Oswald, and Oswald's practically unusable Carcano, and his claim that he was a patsy, start to make sense.

Once you assume there is a Conspiracy, you interpret everything through that lens.

* Why would a competent Conspiracy leave only three empty shell casings if they had fired more than 3 shots?

* Oswald's Carcano was tested and it worked.

* Lots of criminals claim innocence. That doesn't mean they're innocent.

And then, of course, the Dallas Police's most unfortunate loss of the alleged assassin, murdered by a man who just happened to arrive on the scene at just the right, unannounced, moment of Oswald's transfer, in order to be able to make sure that the man who claimed to be a patsy didn't get a chance to defend himself in a trial.

* Oswald wasn't killed resisting arrest, even though he tried to shoot a police officer.
* Oswald was allowed to speak to the media.
* Oswald was killed over 45 hours after his arrest.
* Oswald would have been transferred before Jack Ruby arrived if Oswald hadn't decided he wanted to wear a sweater and then delayed further by changing to a different sweater. Are you saying Oswald was a full participant in a plan to be murdered?
* Dallas police tackled Ruby quickly enough that he only got off one shot.

Perhaps they didn't read their memo from the Conspiracy?

[FISHY1118]

That’s 3 posts that you’ve now spent time on Fishy. During that time you could have posted a couple of examples. Why haven’t you? I can’t think of a single important thing that was missed out by the WC.

Really not 1 ?

[FISHY1118]

I thought people were saying LBJ was part of the Conspiracy. Apparently he didn't get the memo about the Single Bullet Theory being an essential part of the plan.



There is no evidence that anyone except Oswald shot JFK.

Just as there is no conclusive evidence (not the fabricated made up kind we've seen produced of late) Oswald did shoot Kennedy ,this has also been shown on this thread over many weeks.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Really not 1 ?

So you still can’t post a couple Fishy? It can’t be that difficult if there are so many?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just as there is no conclusive evidence (not the fabricated made up kind we've seen produced of late) Oswald did shoot Kennedy ,this has also been shown on this thread over many weeks.

Yes there is though Fishy, an absolute mountain of it. Some of which you and others try to dismiss with words like ‘fake’ an ‘forgery.’ But these things have been examined minutely. For example multiple experts say after examination that there is absolutely no evidence of forgery with the Neely Street photos. I believe that they were also sent to 2 or 3 top university laboratories and all have said that there is zero evidence of forgery. So how can it be a reasoned viewpoint when someone simply refuses to accept the testimony of numerous established experts. This would stand up in any court of law and the photographs were looked at again by experts at the HSCA and they saw no evidence of forgery (and the HSCA certain weren’t WC apologists)

[Doctored Whatsit]

Just to be clear about one thing: some of the Commission members rejected the Single Bullet Theory, as did Governor Connally.

That means they realised that there was more than one gunman and, consequently, a conspiracy.

This is fairly typical of the assumptions being made on this thread.

Even if it were proven that there was a second gunman, and it hasn't, that does not prove a conspiracy. Two gunmen could both have been acting independantly.

Rejecting the single bullet theory doesn't mean they decided there was more than one gunman. Connally thought that Kennedy was hit by the first and third bullets, and he himself by the second. He thought there were three shots, all from the rear. I am not aware of the Commission members deciding there was a conspiracy.

In any event, what is almost always ignored, is that the Commission members were just figureheads. They did virtually nothing to collect and verify information etc. That was done by a team of lawyers, who sorted through all the information provided, made further checks as required, and presented the evidence to the Commission. Individual Commission members only attended some of the meetings, briefings and interviews. They had their own agendas. Ford was writing a book about their work, was keeping in close contact with Hoover, and was always doing whatever seemed to suit his political interests at the time. Disagreeing with Warren, for example, seemed politically advantageous. Russell, as a matter of principle, disagreed with Warren on almost everything, from day one. He made it clear to LBJ that he didn't want to serve on the Commission with Warren. Dulles only attended some of the meetings and was inclined to fall asleep!

Whilst accepting that much information was suppressed, I am far more interested in the information collected by the team of unbiased lawyers, than the conclusions reached by a Commission prejudiced by the pressures of politics etc.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Once you assume there is a Conspiracy, you interpret everything through that lens.

* Why would a competent Conspiracy leave only three empty shell casings if they had fired more than 3 shots?

* Oswald's Carcano was tested and it worked.

* Lots of criminals claim innocence. That doesn't mean they're innocent.



* Oswald wasn't killed resisting arrest, even though he tried to shoot a police officer.
* Oswald was allowed to speak to the media.
* Oswald was killed over 45 hours after his arrest.
* Oswald would have been transferred before Jack Ruby arrived if Oswald hadn't decided he wanted to wear a sweater and then delayed further by changing to a different sweater. Are you saying Oswald was a full participant in a plan to be murdered?
* Dallas police tackled Ruby quickly enough that he only got off one shot.

Perhaps they didn't read their memo from the Conspiracy?

Good points Fiver

Especially the one about Oswald being allowed to speak in front of TV cameras. Why would conspirators allow that massively risky exercise? They wouldn’t have of course.

The often repeated “I’m just a patsy,” is actually very important imo. As we know, a patsy is simply someone that has been blamed for something that he/she didn’t do. This is confirmed of course by Oswald himself who, in the previous sentence, tells reporters that he’s only been arrested because he’d lived in the Soviet Union. He was simply claiming to have been innocent of the murders of Kennedy and Tippit. But, and this is an important point which CT’s refuse to address, at no point does he ever mention a conspiracy or about anyone else being involved. The game was up…..he was in custody with no chance of rescue or escape….he had the perfect chance in front of the worlds media to spill the beans but does he? Absolutely not, because there were no beans to spill of course. He was overwhelmingly guilt of killing Kennedy alone.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is fairly typical of the assumptions being made on this thread.

Even if it were proven that there was a second gunman, and it hasn't, that does not prove a conspiracy. Two gunmen could both have been acting independantly.

Exactly. Bianchi and Buono, Brady and Hindley, Duffy and Mulcahy and others worked as a ‘team’ but weren’t part of any larger conspiracy.

Rejecting the single bullet theory doesn't mean they decided there was more than one gunman. Connally thought that Kennedy was hit by the first and third bullets, and he himself by the second. He thought there were three shots, all from the rear. I am not aware of the Commission members deciding there was a conspiracy.

Many of the commission lawyers like Rankin and Griffin to name but two, absolutely expected to find some kind of conspiracy involving the Russians, the Cubans or some rabid segregationists but they found no such evidence. Reading about the commission as I’m doing at the moment shows clearly the honest intentions. They openly complained in writing about the FBI and the CIA concealing evidence from them. Why would a commission seeking to ‘hide’ a cover-up d this? They wouldn’t of course. Those 2 agencies held back, or tried to hold back, evidence purely to cover their own incompetence and to protect their own reputations. The FBI’s report was useless. They came to the conclusion that Kennedy and Connally were hit by 2 separate bullets from the same gun which was clearly physically impossible.

In any event, what is almost always ignored, is that the Commission members were just figureheads. They did virtually nothing to collect and verify information etc. That was done by a team of lawyers, who sorted through all the information provided, made further checks as required, and presented the evidence to the Commission. Individual Commission members only attended some of the meetings, briefings and interviews. They had their own agendas. Ford was writing a book about their work, was keeping in close contact with Hoover, and was always doing whatever seemed to suit his political interests at the time. Disagreeing with Warren, for example, seemed politically advantageous. Russell, as a matter of principle, disagreed with Warren on almost everything, from day one. He made it clear to LBJ that he didn't want to serve on the Commission with Warren. Dulles only attended some of the meetings and was inclined to fall asleep!

There we’re serious concerns about how doddery Dulles was at this point and whether he was physically fit for the job. Warren would arrive for an hour in the morning then go off to perform his duties as Chief Justice returning at around 5 to catch up on WC business. Some felt that lawyer Francis Adam’s should step down due to his poor attendance. He was still working for his busy legal practice. Many of the lawyers were attending to their own work simultaneously.

Whilst accepting that much information was suppressed, I am far more interested in the information collected by the team of unbiased lawyers, than the conclusions reached by a Commission prejudiced by the pressures of politics etc.

Good post Doc.