JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Yes, I’d like to see that video, so I hope you can find it, because I haven’t seen it. What I have read (before writing my earlier post) it this site: Bobby Hargis -- Motorcycle Cop Struck by JFK's Brain Matter (jfk-assassination.net), which is an interesting read. What I find particularly interesting with regards to the subject, is that, on more than one occasion, said he just “ran through” the debris coming from the president’s head and that it had just “come up and down.”, which fits exactly what we can see in the Zapruder film. So, nothing about hitting him with much force or at high speed. He also stated “right then it was kind of hard to say what run through your mind. You know you pick up these little things. You don't know why you do it. You don't know why you do 'em, you just do 'em. It's just kind of instinct.”, which, to me, fits well enough with his remark that he thought he might have been hit. After all, seeing someone’s head explode from a gunshot, certainly if that's at close range and that someone is the president, wasn’t anything he’d experienced until that day or ever after.


Not necessarily. It would depend on the wind, its direction and force. If, for instance, it blew over in a more or less northern direction, i.e. from the right side of Elm Street to the left, then the motorcycle officers on the right side of the car would not be hit or covered by any debris. And I believe I’ve read somewhere that James Chaney, one of the 2 motorcycle officers to the right of the car, was hit by some debris.


Thanks for the link to the documentary, George. I’d already seen it, but it remains interesting. I have to say that I’m not much impressed by the audio file, simply because the sounds of gunshots are so vague that I can’t really distinguish them from the static. Furthermore, if we assume for a moment that the shot that made the president’s head explode came from behind the fence and that, right after that, he was hit for a second time in the head from the rear, then where was the exit wound for the ‘fence shot’ and where was the exit wound for the ‘rear shot’?

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

The article that you linked is interesting. I focus on the statements made the day after the assassination rather than those made before the WC or on August 7, as these would necessarily have been influenced by the reports of what happened. I find the relevant statement to be " he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood." "Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit."
The side of the head, not the top. This is corroborated by Clint Hill as shown in the photo above. Then he says he was solidly hit (concrete), and then "hit", presumably meaning he thought with a bullet. This is how I read his statement but I accept that you may interpret in a different manner.
I found what Thompson said but I still have a vague recollection of seeing an interview. I could be wrong. I remember once before thinking I was wrong, but I was mistaken.

Is it known with any certainty the direction and force of the wind that day? The enclosed nature of the plaza would have some effect I should think.

I don't profess to understand the acoustics, but I have no qualifications or experience in acoustics so I do not presume to dispute the experts on this topic. I do have some knowledge and experience in the editing of 8mm and Super 8 film, but not at an expert level. I have read that experts in that field have examined the ZF and judged that there have been alterations made to frame 313 and after.

As for the shots, the fatal shot entered the right temple and exited the right occipital as shown in the McClelland diagram. The autopsy indicated a shot entering high on the rear of the skull and exiting high on the front of the skull. The fatal shot was explosive in nature, and on that basis alone was certainly not a military fully jacketed projectile, but a hollow point. The second head shot would have been a military fully jacketed round so the exit would be far smaller. I have seen the exit wounds created by both of these types of projectiles, so I am speaking from experience. The use of dum-dum projectiles in WW1 was a firing squad offence on both sides of the trenches. Sub-sonic hollow points were a favourite with assassins, and sounded different in retort to a standard military round, as was noted by several witnesses.

Best regards, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

I began watching the London Trial again last night for no particular reason that to have another look at those witnesses who were actually involved in various ways. One witness that stood out was Ruth Paine. She was clearly fond of the Oswald’s at the time especially Marina and their daughter June. Ruth was some kind of children’s psychologist at a school and was clearly and intelligent, well balanced woman with no axe to grind who gave her testimony well, getting emotional for a brief moment. Part of her testimony was very telling but, as expected, tends to get glossed over. I can’t recall if she’s been accused of being ‘in on it but naturally it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest. Everyone else has.

On the day of the assassination the police unsurprisingly turned up at her house to make a search and ask questions. She was asked if Oswald had a rifle at the house, she said no but Marina, who was with her, said yes and pointed the officer(s) to a piece of rolled up carpet amongst the junk in the garage. When the officer picked up the roll of carpet he found it empty. So Marina, who certainly wasn’t involved in any plot to incriminate her own husband, tells us that Lee Harvey Oswald definitely owned a rifle which he kept in the garage at the Paine’s house but, at some point prior to the assassination, had removed it. She added a small, seemingly trivial point, which while certainly not a ‘game changer’ is, at the very least, worth noting. Remember that in the house at the time was only Lee, Marine, Ruth and daughter June who was one at the time. The previous evening Ruth went to her garage to paint so building blocks that she’d bought for June and was surprised to find the garage light on. Someone had been in there. It wasn’t her, June was one. So it had to have been Marina or Lee. Ruth said that Marina was reliable at switching off lights around the house. So on the night before the assassination someone unusually left a light on in the garage and Oswald’s rifle was now missing.

[Aethelwulf]

I have to say that I’m not much impressed by the audio file, simply because the sounds of gunshots are so vague that I can’t really distinguish them from the static.

Sounds like the quality of the much vaunted, latest in technology, audio-visual match-up is a bit sketchy to me. Which quite clearly means that any identification of extra gunshots is entirely subjective and without any evidence. Same as the puffs of smoke and 'different gun'.

[FISHY1118]

I have just re-read post #837 - the spectacle of Sir HS commenting on the claims of...well..Sir HS. We are informed that Bugliosi made a phone call to McClelland and the latter finally came clean and admitted he had made a mistake about the location of the exit wound.
Uncut Interview - JFK's Emergency Room Doctor : Dr. Robert McClelland Uncut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ435lMaCng&ab_channel=CityofAllen-ACTV

The video was recorded in 2015, 4 years before his death. No mention of phone calls and changing his testimony.



Video vs uncorroborated phone call.
Is someone lying...or just mistaken?

Hi George , Now thats its clearly been established and proven over the last few weeks on here, the many faults and lies and contradiction of the Warren Commission noval.[ which imsure we could post every night for a year and still keep finding contraditions by the dozen ]

Do you have any thoughts on the following ,

James Files as the Grassy Knoll shooter.

Roscoe white as GK shooter.

Who Killed Officer J.D Tippit .


Im still waiting on a reply for jmenges to confirm his is part of a loonie conspiracy gang .

[GBinOz]

Hi George , Now thats its clearly been established and proven over the last few weeks on here, the many faults and lies and contradiction of the Warren Commission noval.[ which imsure we could post every night for a year and still keep finding contraditions by the dozen ]

Do you have any thoughts on the following ,

James Files as the Grassy Knoll shooter.

Roscoe white as GK shooter.

Who Killed Officer J.D Tippit .


Im still waiting on a reply for jmenges to confirm his is part of a loonie conspiracy gang .

Hi Fishy,

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. I have always been interested in the HOW and the WHY, but not so much the WHO pulled the trigger(s). I have often wondered, if Oswald was on the run and trying to escape when(if) he encountered Tippit, after shooting him why didn't he use Tippit's car to make a getaway?

I did see allegations that the man whose fingerprint was matched to the one found on the rifle rest box in the sniper's nest, convicted killer and good friend of LBJ, Malcolm Wallace was the GK shooter. He would have had to help build the sniper's nest and then get to the GK...I don't think so. More likely to have been the TSBD gunman, if anything.

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

Hi George , Now thats its clearly been established and proven over the last few weeks on here, the many faults and lies and contradiction of the Warren Commission noval.[ which imsure we could post every night for a year and still keep finding contraditions by the dozen ]

Do you have any thoughts on the following ,

James Files as the Grassy Knoll shooter.

Roscoe white as GK shooter.

Who Killed Officer J.D Tippit .


Im still waiting on a reply for jmenges to confirm his is part of a loonie conspiracy gang .

hey fishy
if your waiting to hear from others on their take of the conspiracy theory in order to get your stories straight / come up with a unified theory etc, thats fine if you all can or want to come up with a consensus between you, but its not important to me. ive never beleived people with alternate ideas to an "official " version of some controversial event have to agree on anything. it dosnt lessen the validity of it to me at all.

[GBinOz]

hey fishy
if your waiting to hear from others on their take of the conspiracy theory in order to get your stories straight / come up with a unified theory etc, thats fine if you all can or want to come up with a consensus between you, but its not important to me. ive never beleived people with alternate ideas to an "official " version of some controversial event have to agree on anything. it dosnt lessen the validity of it to me at all.

Hi Abby,

I haven't forgotten your request, I'm just formulating my ideas. I'll give my personal views without conference with others.

Cheers, George

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Fishy,

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. I have always been interested in the HOW and the WHY, but not so much the WHO pulled the trigger(s). I have often wondered, if Oswald was on the run and trying to escape when(if) he encountered Tippit, after shooting him why didn't he use Tippit's car to make a getaway?

I did see allegations that the man whose fingerprint was matched to the one found on the rifle rest box in the sniper's nest, convicted killer and good friend of LBJ, Malcolm Wallace was the GK shooter. He would have had to help build the sniper's nest and then get to the GK...I don't think so. More likely to have been the TSBD gunman, if anything.

Cheers, George

I would also like to know how this is supposed to have worked. Is the conspiracy argument that JFK was shot from the book building and then someone else in a totally different location (e.g the knoll) reacted in a split second (e.g. seven tenths of a second) and also shot him? Or is it that there were no shots from the book building and just some other location? Surely it can't be the former as it is far fetched to the point of being totally ridiculous.

[jmenges]

To Jonathan, GB and fishy
Do you all think Oswald wasnt a shooter and or didnt even have a gun? Did he even know about the plot to kill the president?

It would be interesting to see each of your individual story of the details of the conspiracy-who, what why etc etc. and oswalds role in it, if any.
The non conspiracy(oswald acted alone) story is pretty straight forward and well known-but im hazy on the details of yours.

I ask this in all sincerity, im genuinely interested. Full transparency-- as Ive stated before, although I lean toward oswald acting alone, Im completely open to a conspiracy, or at least a second shooter. Would love to know your detailed "theory"/idea.
Please no links or referring to other researchers work-Just in your own words.

Hi Abby,
I've already stated the basics of my beliefs but here they are again in a bit more detail.

I won't get too involved in this endless debate as I don't have the time nor interest.

I think the best case can be made for there being a CIA officer working out of JMWAVE who used a small team of volunteers from its Cuba project (assassination of Castro) and turned it against Kennedy. John Roselli and David Morales being two of them. Jack Ruby would have been given a supporting role ("I have been used for a purpose.") providing ground level information about the Dallas police and parade route- probably being told the parade route would be disrupted by anti-Castro activists, but not being told that Kennedy was to be killed. I believe there were two actual shooters. One on the left side behind the Grassy Knoll and the other in the Dal-Tex building. "Oswald's rifle" was hidden and shells were placed in the TSBD in advance. If there was a shooter on the sixth floor, he was only there to fire a missed shot to draw attention. Oswald was set up. Quickly after the assassination the DRE (proven to be CIA funded) was prompted to issue press releases to tie Oswald to the Castro government with the hopes that it would spark an invasion of Cuba.
Since Oswald was a CIA dangle, this needed to be covered up. The cover-up of Oswald's CIA connections was the only time any higher level government departments were involved.
I think the whole assassination plot could have been carried out by no more than 6 people.

Of course each element is a lengthy story all its own, especially Oswald's, but this is just the Cliff Notes version.
It's actually one of the more popular theories and further reading abounds.

JM

[Herlock Sholmes]

hey fishy
if your waiting to hear from others on their take of the conspiracy theory in order to get your stories straight / come up with a unified theory etc, thats fine if you all can or want to come up with a consensus between you, but its not important to me. ive never beleived people with alternate ideas to an "official " version of some controversial event have to agree on anything. it dosnt lessen the validity of it to me at all.

That’s not what’s going on there Abby. This is Fishy’s third post mentioning JM going quite a way back. What he was doing, due to my opinion of conspiracy theory in general, was to get Jon to say that he feels somehow ‘insulted.’ It’s a ploy that he’s employed elsewhere to try and get me censured by a moderator. It’s like the kid who sneaks over to the teacher and tells tale and then sits at the back of the class excitedly waiting for someone to get told off.

[Herlock Sholmes]

When accusations fly as they have done here I prefer an accurate portrayal of what’s been going on. Fishy and George paint a picture of big bad Herlock against our two blameless heroes. Is that really the case? I went back from post 20 to now. I made a note of posts between the three of us only. I noted any insults. I even noted sarcasm and mockery (because I know that I use them) I also noted snide digs and even slightly ‘off-colour’ remarks. I glossed over or ignored nothing. I even have the list that I can cut and paste to prove what I’ve done. I also point out that, unlike Fishy, I haven’t done this to invite censure against either of them. Perhaps I’m not as fragile as them?

Results.

Herlock - 35
Fishy - 31
George - 22.

Considering that I was responding to 2 people and they were both aiming their comments at me, it’s 35 by me, 53 by them.

Not exactly the picture painted by George and Fishy though is it?

Not the first time I’ve experienced this. People are quick to point out my faults (which I’ve always owned up to) whilst ignoring or glossing over their own.

Ill continue posting about the case - I’ll make the effort to roll back the sarcasm, but we are all adults after all. I doubt that there will be any admissions though.

[cobalt]

The public wasn't required to 'accept' anything Cobalt.

I have to disagree. Imagine if J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI announced: 'This case has got us stumped. It was a cold, calculated hit.' James Angleton of the CIA admitted: 'Despite extensive enquiries we are no further forward in identifying the assassin. It's all a bit of a mystery.' So the public are told to let the matter rest and move on?

[jmenges]

I fully understand what Warren Commission supporters think of the Warren Commission critics and the feelings tend to be mutual. Accusations and insults have been hurled back and forth from the two sides for 60 years. There are forums elsewhere on the web devoted to this case that makes what’s happening here look like preschoolers playing Patty Cake.

No one has reported any posts and I hope this will continue, but that’s up to all of you. Although this thread is on Social Chat we expect you to conduct yourselves with a level of maturity we know you’re capable of.

JM

[caz]

There was just no need for a Patsy. None at all. If people wanted Kennedy dead the dead is dead. Their overriding priorities would clearly have been twofold. 1. Kill Kennedy, 2. Don’t get found out.

The first part was the easy bit. The second part could have been reasonably straightforward but by introducing Oswald as a Patsy they introduced a 1001 ways for the plan to come crumbling down (yes 1001 is entirely random)

One single witness proves that he saw Oswald anywhere but the 6th floor at the time of the shots.
Someone finds an issue with the prints, or the gun etc.
One witness provably sees a 6ft black guy with a limp shooting Tippit.
A bullet from the Grassy Knoll misses and is found.
Or a shot from the side misses Kennedy and hits Jackie.
The pathologists don’t play ball.
Anyone conspirator or 2 or 3 has a pang of conscience and goes public.
Someone takes a clear photo of the Grassy Knoll gunman or film footage.
Some have-a-go hero gives chase to the Grassy Knoll gunman.
A man goes to his car behind the fence and sees the gunman.
The inevitable enquiries post WC find incontrovertible proof of conspiracy.
And many more.

Would any agency take a tenth of the risks above? Would the Government? Would they have risked the massive consequences and irrevocable damage to their reputations and the countries standing in the world? And all to make a symbolic gesture over a simple, effective almost risk-free job?

Surely that’s not believable?

Not to me, Herlock.

And what about the motive? I can see why a disaffected, trigger-happy loner, or group of violent, asocial political extremists, would do this kind of thing and not dwell too much on the personal consequences. But a range of supposedly intelligent, but highly corruptible professionals, representing various authorities and fields of expertise, are persuaded to go rogue by their own, or someone else's glorious vision of a USA without JFK? Presidents come and go, and normal people just wait for a different one to be elected if they don't like the cut of the current incumbent's jib. They don't generally feel so strongly that they rise up en masse to support a conspiracy to assassinate one in office, and hope nobody spills the beans when their world is no better for it.

Love,

Caz
X

[rjpalmer]

I half expect to wake some morning and see the images of Carrie Brown and Annie Chapman on this website replaced with photographs of Jackie O. and Mary Pinchot Meyer.