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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    What do we know that our conspirators aim was according to CT’s? This at least has to be something that we can all agree on? So….

    By setting up the sniper’s nest, by planting the rifle and by planting the shells they were clearly trying to prove to everyone that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy after firing 3 shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD…..can we at least agree on that?

    We know when Kennedy was shot (just after 12.30)

    We know when the bullet (c399) was found in the stretcher at Parkland Hospital by Darrell Tomlinson (around 1.20)

    So it was found less than 50 minutes after the assassination by which time no search or investigation had been done and no one knew anything about where the bullets or bullet fragments were and they definitely couldn’t have known how many there were…….surely we can agree on that?

    So, I’ll ask 2 questions.

    1. As the point is regularly made that a bullet that passed through a body (or bodies) wouldn’t have been ‘almost pristine,’ why would a conspirator have planted a bullet that would cause such doubts to be raised? Why didn’t they simply fire it through an animal carcass before planting it or use some other method of ‘damaging’ it? Could anything have been simpler for a plotter?

    2. Even more serious and more telling……why would a conspirator who is part of a plot to prove 3 shots from Oswald (per the shells) have planted a bullet before the rest of the bullets were located (especially when they knew that there was a second gunman) For example, what if they had found a bullet inside Kennedy, one inside Connally and one somewhere inside the car (the upholstery or the bodywork of the car for eg)

    The stretcher bullet would have meant that there were at least 4 bullets…..with only 3 shells on the 6th floor……therefore 2 gunman.

    Therefore no conspirator could possibly have done this.

    Therefore the stretcher bullet could not have been planted by conspirators.

    Therefor……No conspiracy​
    In addition to the above, which disproves the silly notion of a conspiracy (and which the cowardly conspiracy theorists can’t answer), we can add another couple of facts.

    1. How could our non-existent bullet planter have known that he’d have been able to have asked the stretcher?

    2. How could he have known that he’d have been able to identify the correct stretcher?

    3. How could he have possibly know that there wasn’t already a bullet lodged inside Connally? This would have meant 2 in Connally introducing the very real possibility that it would mean two shooters?


    The silence of the conspiracy theorists speak volumes. We can say with absolute certainty that Kennedy was killed by Oswald alone. Conspiracist are left waffling on about Cuba and Russia and disputed bullet trajectories but when faced with real, down-to-earth, common sense questions based on inarguable truths they scurry away and spend their time making up excuses why they aren’t going to respond.

    It’s not that the won’t answer, it’s that they can’t answer.


    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      How did the conspirators manage to forge the Oswald photographs then damn! they forgot about the one that showed up in George De Mohrenschildt’s property in 1978?

      And how did they persuade Michael Paine to say that he’d seen the photograph sometime around April of 1963? That’s some serious pre-planning to frame a man who only got his job at the TSBD in October.
      Preposterous, isn't it?

      Has anyone provided any evidence that Oswald was manipulated into taking that particular job in the October, so there would be a reasonable chance of him actually being in the right place on the day of the motorcade?

      This is a major sticking point for me. All this 'impersonation' malarkey would have been for nought if Oswald had no intention of being in Dallas by November. If it was his choice to take that job in the TSBD, just five weeks before the assassination, then it's a slam dunk that he knew what he was doing and what he was planning for JFK's visit.

      Love,

      Caz
      X
      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
        You spoke about the frame that shows a movement in the lapel. Why couldn't this have simply been a gust of wind. Many have commented that they can detect a reaction by Connolly in frames in the ZF 230's. Firstly, Kennedy has been hit long before then, but perhaps that was a throat wound from the front. What I keep in mind when I am watching Connolly in the ZF is that he stated that he turned to the right to see the president, but could not see him. He said that he was hit as he was turning back to the left, which would put him in a similar position to that which Myers proposed, but when he was turning back towards the front. What I see when I watch is, that after Connolly is supposedly reacting, he is seen to continue turning to the right with no signs of distress. IMO the shot that hit Connolly occurs at around frames 285-290. This later hit would have been after Kennedy has slumped to his left, which is why Connolly didn't see him.
        Hi George,

        Between frame 154 and 162 Connally is turning to look briefly to his left. Before he was looking to his right. Then between 162 and 167 Connally sharply turns back to looking to his right. And he keeps on looking to his right until frame 224. In that frame he starts turning forward, then makes this odd movement of bringing up his hat. This is almost simultaneously to when the president is moving up his arms and elbows. Then, at frame 236, he starts turning looking back of his right shoulder again, this time to such an extent that his upper body is approximately at right angles with the backrest of his seat. At around frame 255, he more or less completes this movement and it is at around this moment that Altgens takes his famous photo. We see no bullet hole in the front windscreen and the rearview mirror is straight and in place. At around frame 285 Connally starts leaning backward, towards his wife. Then, at about 290 he starts turning back to his left, stops to rest with his back against his wife for a number of frames and at 308 he continues his left turn and is almost looking forward when the president gets shot in the head. Then he and his wife duck down.

        So, you think Connally was actually shot between frames 285 and 290, in which his upper body was almost or approximately at right angles with the backrest of his seat. Or, in other words, Connally’s right shoulder was almost pointing to the Records Building.

        Okay, let’s suppose that, other than the shot hitting the president in the back, there was another shot from the rear, meant for the president but missing him and instead striking Connally. This is, at least, a logical theory. It would only need a few centimetres/inches to miss the president and then strike Connally instead. Looking at the layout of Dealey Plaza with all its buildings and the position of the limousine along the route down Elm Street, this would only have worked for a shot coming from the TSBD or Dal-Tex Building and would, maybe, only just about to have been possible for a shot coming from the northwest corner of the Records Building. Further to the south of that building, Jackie Kennedy would have blocked the snipers view of Connally and shots in his direction.

        A shot hitting Connally from behind entering close to the armpit and exiting about 1 inch below the nipple would have to have come from, preferably, the south side of the Courts Building. Still, it would have to have been a bullet on a downward trajectory traversing from armpit to below the nipple and then have to go up again to enter the wrist from the upper side and exit it on the other side. You haven't addressed this. What also has to be taken into account is that, from there and at that point (frame 285-290), the president would, to a very large extent if not completely, have been blocked from view by Jackie Kennedy from somewhere in the Courts Building. All in all, it doesn’t seem likely at all to me that Connally was hit between frames 285 and 290.

        I’m completely satisfied that, what I see in the film – the jacket lapel, the odd movement with the hat in front of him, the lowering of the right shoulder and keeping his right arm bent and close to his chest (keeping the hand clutching the hat at around shoulder level) from that moment on, his facial expression – are all indications that Connally was already hit by that time. Of course, the movement of the lapel could have been just a gust of wind, but in combination with the things I mention directly above, that would be just a bit too much of a coincidence for my taste.

        All the best,
        Frank
        "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
        Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by caz View Post

          Preposterous, isn't it?

          Has anyone provided any evidence that Oswald was manipulated into taking that particular job in the October, so there would be a reasonable chance of him actually being in the right place on the day of the motorcade?

          This is a major sticking point for me. All this 'impersonation' malarkey would have been for nought if Oswald had no intention of being in Dallas by November. If it was his choice to take that job in the TSBD, just five weeks before the assassination, then it's a slam dunk that he knew what he was doing and what he was planning for JFK's visit.

          Love,

          Caz
          X
          There is none Caz. Oswald was looking for a job and Ruth Paine met someone at a party who worked at the TSBD. He or she advised Paine to get Oswald to apply in person as he/she didn’t have any influence (I’m unsure if they even knew that there was a vacancy at the time) Oswald applied and got the job around 5 weeks before the assassination.

          So as you say what would have been the point in creating all of these Oswald impersonators popping up everywhere if no one could possibly have known, a) that the Presidents route would pass the TSBD or b) that they had the ideal someone on the ‘inside’ for the job.

          These points never get responded to….ever. PI, George, Cobalt and Fishy throw a rather convenient sulk when these questions arise but they’re quite happy to blather on about trajectories and impersonators. We even, absolutely unbelievable, have a poster on here who believes that his knowledge of physics exceeds that of a Nobel Prize winning Experimental Physicist. You couldn’t invent people like conspiracy theorists. How divorced from the real world can you get?

          And I have to repeat…..these people, who scream ‘fake’ and ‘forgery’ at every opportunity as a convenient ‘get out’ clause, have for days now been using as proof that Oswald was a CIA operative a document that is a proven fake! And has just one of them had the integrity so say:”ok, fair enough, it’s a fake.”?

          Not one of the Caz……yet these are the same people who accuse me of doing something that they themselves have done to. And when the black and white proof is shown….complete silence. Sherr hypocrisy and dishonesty.
          Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 03-15-2023, 12:43 PM.
          Regards

          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
            My first reason for doubt is that Humes stated that the wound terminated in Kennedy's body. The second is that the animation adjusted the evidence to fit a result.
            Hi George,

            As to the first point I largely concur with what Michael (Sherlock) wrote: Humes hadn't spoken to Dr. Perry yet and, so, didn't know that the tracheostomy had hid the bullet wound to the throat. As to the second point I'd advise you to watch this: dale myers jfk australian recreation of single bullet theory - Google Zoeken​ from minute 38:30 until 41:45.

            What the findings basically say is that, with the president having raised his right arm - as he was sitting at the time of the first shot that struck him - the bullet, using the bullet hole in the president's shirt as a basis, entered the body higher up. When the autopsy photo was taken, presumably, his right arm was down and the bullet hole appeared lower and slightly below the neck. But this wasn't his position when he got hit.

            Further towards the end of the video, you can see how a re-enactment of the single bullet theory was done by an Australian team, with interesting results.

            What evidence do I have to back up this view?
            1. Connolly's statements, other than the interview in the hospital bed when he stated that he first turned to the left, which is not shown in the ZF.
            2. The evidence of my eyes watching the ZF a great many times with a single purpose in mind for each viewing. YMMV.
            The thing with Connally is that he didn't see when the president was hit, so, he couldn't know whether the bullet that hit him was or wasn't the one that also hit the president. And his as an earwitness he heard 3 shots: the first missing, the second hitting him and the third hitting the president in the head.

            You have said that your currently embracing the Lone Gunman theory. How sure are you that the gunman was Oswald? Do you allow for the possibility that he was a Patsy?
            The possibility that someone other than Oswald is theoretically there, but I'm quite satisfied with him having pulled the trigger three times. There's only evidence that it was, in fact, Oswald and none that it was someone else. That, however, doesn't mean I have closed my mind on the subject.

            All the best,
            Frank
            Last edited by FrankO; 03-15-2023, 12:48 PM.
            "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
            Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

              Kennedy fell sideways, not backwards. As is shown by some tests done by Mythbusters.


              You mean sideways and to his left?

              Comment


              • And he moved forward first. Exactly as you would expect to find according to the laws of physics (which PI believes should be re-written) when a tiny bullet hits a head. And how do conspiracy theorists deal with this point………you guessed it…….the Zapruder Film was faked.

                Its like debating with children.
                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                Comment


                • The suggestion that our conspirators set up this huge cover-up and conspiracy at Bethesda (a location that they didn’t know that Kennedy would be taken to) but completely ignore Parkland (a location that they knew that Kennedy would have to have been taken to) is the equivalent of 3 men walking into a bank and robbing it at gunpoint only to walk out onto the street and only then put masks on. Then when they are arrested they say:”well it couldn’t have been us because look at the street CCTV…..those men have masks on.

                  And we are expected to take this foolishness seriously? Full marks to conspiracy theorists for continuing this blatant lie for 60 years. If more people looked a little closer rather than simply believing people like Stone, Garrison, Lane and Groden this nonsense would have been put to bed years ago.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                  “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
                    'So maybe the best ear witness would have been a blind person close to the gunman, and the best eye witness would have been a deaf person close to the motorcade.'

                    Oops, I think that's what is called an own goal.
                    There was a deaf witness close to the motorcade. HS has referred to him on a number of occasions.
                    No own goal, cobalt. A deaf person would have been able to concentrate on what they were seeing, with no distractions from crowd noise or gun shots. But that just means they could more accurately describe what they had seen played out in front of their eyes. It wouldn't have qualified them to interpret what had just happened, in terms of where the bullets had come from. We know this because the peer reviewed science proves that JFK's movements were consistent with being shot from behind, regardless of how counterintuitive that might have been for those watching - or for experienced hunters of dumb animals for that matter.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                      Hi George,

                      As to the first point I largely concur with what Michael (Sherlock) wrote: Humes hadn't spoken to Dr. Perry yet and, so, didn't know that the tracheostomy had hid the bullet wound to the throat. As to the second point I'd advise you to watch this: dale myers jfk australian recreation of single bullet theory - Google Zoeken​ from minute 38:30 until 41:45.

                      What the findings basically say is that, with the president having raised his right arm - as he was sitting at the time of the first shot that struck him - the bullet, using the bullet hole in the president's shirt as a basis, entered the body higher up. When the autopsy photo was taken, presumably, his right arm was down and the bullet hole appeared lower and slightly below the neck. But this wasn't his position when he got hit.

                      Further towards the end of the video, you can see how a re-enactment of the single bullet theory was done by an Australian team, with interesting results.

                      All the best,
                      Frank
                      Hi Frank,

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                      Looking at the autopsy front sheet, the witness descriptions, the holes in the shirt and coat and the description of the location as the third thoracic vertebrae, I remain unconvinced that the hole was in the back of the neck. All the Parkland doctors that commented on the throat wound described it as an entry wound at the time.

                      Myers said that the flap of the lapel and the sudden erratic movements occurred between 223 and 240 and therefore the hit must have occurred within those frames. I've looked repeatedly at frames 240 to 270 and I can't see any indication of the distress of a man who had been shot through the chest and having had his wrist smashed.

                      I had already watched the South Australian re-enactment, and I have read other experiments using gelatine, but those conducted at the time with goats and human cadavers are the most relevant. The shooting through the wood was using Pine, which is very soft. The result would have been dramatically different had an Australia hardwood, such as Ironbark, been used. If CE 399 passed through Kennedy and Connolly smashing a rib and the hard bone in the wrist and came out nearly pristine, how could the head shot have caused the below damage and fragmentation?

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                      We'll have to agree to disagree at this stage, but that's not a problem. Put a hundred people in a room and there'll be disagreement, currently in a 60/40 ratio.

                      Best regards, George

                      They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                      Out of a misty dream
                      Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                      Within a dream.
                      Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post
                        Assuming Oswald was the lone assassin, he could not have known the motorcade route until three days before the assassination.

                        That means he would have had three days in which to plan the assassination of the President of the United States.

                        The assumption that weeks before the assassination, Oswald luckily applied for a job on what would become the motorcade route, planned the assassination at three days' notice, was able to enter the TSBD with a rifle without anyone noticing, carry it up to the sixth floor without anyone noticing, fire the shots from the sixth floor in the confident expectation that no-one else would be there, leave the rifle at the top of the stairs, knowing no-one would see him do so, descend the stairs without anyone seeing or hearing him, and be four floors below within 90 seconds of the assassination without showing any signs of recent physical activity, is a good deal more farfetched than the hypothesis that the conspirators had an expectation that the motorcade route would be adjusted to make sure that it did pass the TSBD.
                        There's no getting away from the fact that Oswald alone was in charge of where Oswald would be, and what he would be doing, at any particular moment on the day of the motorcade. If the route had been changed, for example, he would either have had to change with it and taken his chances, or postpone his plans for another time and place. He took a package into the TSBD that day, which he had previously led two people to assume contained curtain rods, and he would have been highly motivated to make sure he was not observed or obstructed from making his move when the time came. Quite obviously he wouldn't have gone ahead with witnesses present, but by the same token there would only have been a very small window for anyone else to have shot JFK when the motorcade passed the TSBD, and absolutely no way of knowing if Oswald would be on his own when that happened, if he had been an unwitting patsy.

                        I do wish you and others would think about this and how utterly unworkable any such plan would have been in practice. Try applying the laws of physics to the 'patsy' theory for once. It was Oswald himself who planted the idea into the minds of the suggestible, for obvious reasons. How stupid did he think they would have to be to believe him without question?

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                        Comment


                        • And if, for whatever reason, the 6th floor turned out to have been an unsuitable spot on that particular day who would have been better placed to have moved around the building in search of a better spot, a man that worked there and who was a familiar face and who knew the layout or a ‘Mr X’ who had never stepped foot in the building before?
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by caz View Post

                            No own goal, cobalt. A deaf person would have been able to concentrate on what they were seeing, with no distractions from crowd noise or gun shots. But that just means they could more accurately describe what they had seen played out in front of their eyes. It wouldn't have qualified them to interpret what had just happened, in terms of where the bullets had come from. We know this because the peer reviewed science proves that JFK's movements were consistent with being shot from behind, regardless of how counterintuitive that might have been for those watching - or for experienced hunters of dumb animals for that matter.

                            Love,

                            Caz
                            X

                            And the deaf person in question was Ed Hofmann. Probably the biggest liar and fantasist connected to the case. Even his own father said the same.

                            What about Marylin Sitzman, who was Abraham Zapruder’s assistant. She was standing just behind Zapruder at the time as was about as close to the picket fence ‘gunman’ area as anyone. She didn’t hear a bullet flying over her rights shoulder. She said that the shots came from the direction of the TSBD.
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                            “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                              Click image for larger version Name:	Newman-1.jpg Views:	0 Size:	82.8 KB ID:	804777 W.E. Newman Jnr, the man closest to JFK when the head shot was made (about 12 feet), showing where the bullet hit the President. He said it came from the grassy knoll. But why listen to him. We'll just take the testimony of people who weren't even there.

                              Cheers, George
                              Newman also said:

                              "The President jumped up in his seat."

                              "He (JFK) was standing up"

                              "Mrs Kennedy jumped on top of the President."

                              All of which are clearly wrong based on the photographic evidence.

                              The photographic evidence also shows Newman was wrong when he said "he was hot in the side of the head".

                              "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                              "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                              Comment



                              • Please see my replies below.


                                Originally posted by caz View Post

                                There's no getting away from the fact that Oswald alone was in charge of where Oswald would be, and what he would be doing, at any particular moment on the day of the motorcade. If the route had been changed, for example, he would either have had to change with it and taken his chances, or postpone his plans for another time and place.


                                I suggest that the conspirators left nothing to chance.



                                He took a package into the TSBD that day, which he had previously led two people to assume contained curtain rods, and he would have been highly motivated to make sure he was not observed or obstructed from making his move when the time came.


                                Please tell us when the time came!


                                Quite obviously he wouldn't have gone ahead with witnesses present, but by the same token there would only have been a very small window for anyone else to have shot JFK when the motorcade passed the TSBD,


                                You're assuming shots really were fired from the sixth floor of the TSBD.


                                and absolutely no way of knowing if Oswald would be on his own when that happened, if he had been an unwitting patsy.


                                The Warren Commission's treatment of evidence both about Jack Ruby's presence at the hospital and Oswald's at the time of Tippit's shooting suggests that where Oswald actually was at the time of the assassination would not have been decisive.


                                I do wish you and others would think about this and how utterly unworkable any such plan would have been in practice. Try applying the laws of physics to the 'patsy' theory for once. It was Oswald himself who planted the idea into the minds of the suggestible, for obvious reasons. How stupid did he think they would have to be to believe him without question?

                                Is it just a coincidence that Ruby too alleged that others had put him in the position he was in?

                                What is stupid about believing that a man who had defected to the USSR and had US intelligence connections would make a good candidate to be set up with a job on the Presidential motorcade route and then accused of having murdered the President during his lunch hour?



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