JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

Was any one closer than Clint Hill -"it was just like an eruption, blood, brain matter, bone fragments".

Hill does not support your theory.

"That shot hit him in the back of the head and then it erupted out of the upper right quadrant just above the ear. And it blew that portion of the skull, which was still attached to the scalp, forward like a flap, kinda, and out of that wound gushed blood and bone fragments and brain matter all over the back of the car. All over me. All over Mrs Kennedy. " - Clint Hill

[Fiver]

The side of the head, not the top. This is corroborated by Clint Hill as shown in the photo above.

That is not what Clint Hill said. He said the bullet hit JFK in the back of the head.

[Aethelwulf]

Hill does not support your theory.

"That shot hit him in the back of the head and then it erupted out of the upper right quadrant just above the ear. And it blew that portion of the skull, which was still attached to the scalp, forward like a flap, kinda, and out of that wound gushed blood and bone fragments and brain matter all over the back of the car. All over me. All over Mrs Kennedy. " - Clint Hill

You're wasting your time on this. I posted quite a lot on this before The Great Glitch - all ignored. There is a paper here (pre-print pdf here: https://engrxiv.org/preprint/view/1579/3247 (Computational ballistic analysis of the cranial shot to John F. Kennedy (Forensic Science International, Volume 334, May 2022)

The abstract is below. They basically simulated shots from different locations (book building, grassy knoll, south knoll, storm drain) and compared the skull damage patterns to the autopsy photos and x-rays. They also modelled bullet damage/deformation from each location. The only location that gave a match was from Oswald's location. The grassy knoll resulted in damage more across the forehead (see figures 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 in the pdf - Oswald's location from the rear, and compare with the other locations (fig 16 is the grassy knoll). Bullet damage and skull damage just don't match. You can re-post images as the pre-print is covered by creative commons (just don't have time do it myself at the moment)

Almost 60 years after the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963 the majority of Americans are still reluctant to believe the official reports of commissions from 1964 and again in 1976 that determined the direction of the shot resulting in the fatal head injury. Long-withheld, confidential government files released in 2017 reignited the controversy. The present investigation computationally simulated projectile-skull impacts from the direction specified in official reports and from three other directions. Detailed geometric models of the human head and ammunition, as well as known parameters from the assassination site served as the supportive base for analysis. Constitutive mathematical models for the impact of projectile material with skull tissues at supersonic speed were employed to analyze bone and bullet fragmentation mechanics. Simulated fracture characteristics of the bone and the bullet were compared with photographic and X-ray evidence. The most likely origin of the fatal shot was determined based on the degree of corresponding deformation and fragmentation between simulation and documented evidence. Computational corroboration could be established as physically consistent with high-speed impact from the rear, as established by the official commissions. Simulations of three other speculative shot origins did not correspond to the documented evidence.

[cobalt]

‘He took a package into the TSBD that day, which he had previously led two people to assume contained curtain rods, and he would have been highly motivated to make sure he was not observed or obstructed from making his move when the time came.’

Please tell us when the time came!

Indeed. The usual claim is some time after 11.55 when Oswald was last seen on the 6^th floor. But there are a couple of problems with this. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald on either the 2^nd or 1^st floor at 12.15. And crucially our two witnesses Junior Jarman and Harold Norman stated they came in the back door of the TSBD, and based on their explanation of when and why they did this, the time can be narrowed down to 12.23. They did not notice Oswald but he stated (according to Fritz’s notes) that he saw them pass by the domino room on the 1^st floor.

Now Oswald identified them both: he did not guess at one of them or put their colleague Bonnie Ray Williams (who they later joined on the 5^th floor) in their company. He identified Jarman by name and gave an accurate description of Norman whose name he presumably did not know. The WC dealt with this problem by introducing a red herring: they asked whether they had lunch with Oswald (no record of Oswald claiming this) and they answered honestly that they had not.

Oswald on the 1^st floor (we call it ground floor in the UK) gives him about 7 minutes to carry out the assassination. Less really, since the motorcade was scheduled to pass by at 12.25. In true Colombo style he might have earlier arranged the sniper’s nest, assembled the rifle and nipped upstairs to do the deed before returning to the 2^nd floor lunch room where he had his exchange with Marrion Baker.

So when did he arrange the sniper’s nest, and assemble his rifle? He could hardly have been doing this when Bonnie Ray Williams was eating lunch on the 6^th floor from around noon till 12.20. So if he did his preparatory work earlier why did no one notice? Neither the floor laying crew nor fellow order fillers? I have heard it claimed that Oswald did next to no work that morning and that his orders had not been filled. A clipboard purporting to show this turned up some days after the 6^th floor had been, we assume, meticulously searched. Hanging around not doing your work for three hours was never an option in any factory or transport company I ever worked in since there was always some manager keeping an eye on things. Oswald was described as a good worker by his manager before the WC so any slacking on his part would surely have been noticed.

[caz]

If you cared to go back and read that topic caz ,what was being discussed wasn't the covid vaccinations that caused problems as you put it. But the spread of the virus itself.

Theentire topic on my part was and still remains thus, the ability of the virus to spread and infect both vaccinated and unvaccinated people regardless .

Accepting the fact the vaccines offer more protection from severe illness and death for people who got vaccinated . That was it.

Don't make it out to be something it wasn't.

I know what it was - a dangerous misuse of statistics by FISHY, which demonstrated his inability to distinguish between numbers and percentages. This was explained to him several times, not just by me, and yet he still failed to grasp the very simple concept, or just couldn't bear to be proven wrong. I don't recall an acknowledgement of his mistake, or an apology for posting misleading figures to make a spurious argument about the effectiveness of the covid vaccines.

To put it simply, he used numbers to claim that more vaccinated people died than unvaccinated, while ignoring the fact that the first group far outnumbered the second, and utterly failing to appreciate why this made a world of difference.

A hypothetical example would be if, for every hundred people getting their jabs, there were ten who refused, and twelve vaccinated people still got covid and died, while only nine died unvaccinated. FISHY was seeking to make a direct comparison between the number of deaths [i.e. more deaths among the vaccinated than among the unvaccinated ] without taking any account of the number of survivors in each group, which in this case would be eighty-eight, or 88%, of those who had been vaccinated, compared with just one, or 10%, of those who hadn't.

In case FISHY is still in the dark, I'll give him an analogy more appropriate for this thread. A thousand people gather in a public place to see a famous person. A small group of protesters stand together, away from the main crowd. A disaffected young man approaches with a loaded gun and a bad attitude. Suddenly, he opens fire on the nearest target and all but one of the protesters are killed or badly wounded. He then heads towards the excited crowd and manages to kill or injure twice as many fans as there were protesters, before being cornered and turning the gun on himself.

The gunman had the ability to shoot at both groups of people regardless, and more fans fell than protesters. But only in FISHY's world would this mean that he was less likely, or no more likely, to be shot if he'd been among the protesters.

I don't know about anyone else, but it doesn't give me any confidence in FISHY's ability to reason his way out of a bag of chips.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

‘He took a package into the TSBD that day, which he had previously led two people to assume contained curtain rods, and he would have been highly motivated to make sure he was not observed or obstructed from making his move when the time came.’

Please tell us when the time came!

Indeed. The usual claim is some time after 11.55 when Oswald was last seen on the 6^th floor. But there are a couple of problems with this. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald on either the 2^nd or 1^st floor at 12.15. And crucially our two witnesses Junior Jarman and Harold Norman stated they came in the back door of the TSBD, and based on their explanation of when and why they did this, the time can be narrowed down to 12.23. They did not notice Oswald but he stated (according to Fritz’s notes) that he saw them pass by the domino room on the 1^st floor.

And what you completely ignore is the photograph of the 1st floor domino room and the floor plan of that floor. The room was the size of two elevator cubicles (you can see this on the plan) It’s was tiny. How could someone have entered that room, even briefly, and not seen someone else in there?

Now Oswald identified them both: he did not guess at one of them or put their colleague Bonnie Ray Williams (who they later joined on the 5^th floor) in their company. He identified Jarman by name and gave an accurate description of Norman whose name he presumably did not know. The WC dealt with this problem by introducing a red herring: they asked whether they had lunch with Oswald (no record of Oswald claiming this) and they answered honestly that they had not.

Here’s a brilliant suggestion…..Oswald had clearly been in that 1st floor domino room several times since being employed there. He would undoubtedly have seen them eating together before…..probably on numerous occasions as people at work tend to eat their lunches at the same place every day. So how is it at all suspicious that Oswald mentioned the two (only one of them by name of course) Add that to the fact that they couldn’t have failed to have seen him in that tiny room had he been there, and we can see conspiracist thinking exposed.

Oswald on the 1^st floor (we call it ground floor in the UK) gives him about 7 minutes to carry out the assassination. Less really, since the motorcade was scheduled to pass by at 12.25. In true Colombo style he might have earlier arranged the sniper’s nest, assembled the rifle and nipped upstairs to do the deed before returning to the 2^nd floor lunch room where he had his exchange with Marrion Baker.

So when did he arrange the sniper’s nest, and assemble his rifle? He could hardly have been doing this when Bonnie Ray Williams was eating lunch on the 6^th floor from around noon till 12.20. So if he did his preparatory work earlier why did no one notice? Neither the floor laying crew nor fellow order fillers? I have heard it claimed that Oswald did next to no work that morning and that his orders had not been filled. A clipboard purporting to show this turned up some days after the 6^th floor had been, we assume, meticulously searched. Hanging around not doing your work for three hours was never an option in any factory or transport company I ever worked in since there was always some manager keeping an eye on things. Oswald was described as a good worker by his manager before the WC so any slacking on his part would surely have been noticed.

Again you ignore evidence. Oswald’s worksheet clipboard was found by the police on the 6th floor. It had 3 orders on it. Oswald hadn’t filled it in as he would have done had he completed orders. Therefore from the time that Oswald got to work until the time of the assassination this ‘innocent’ man didn’t do a stroke of work. So what did he have to do? Pile some boxes around the window which would have taken all of 2 minutes. And then how long to assemble a rifle? I’ve never done it. 2 minutes? 3 minutes? Unseen? Behind a wall of boxes.

The conspiracy goggles are firmly in place as ever.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I know what it was - a dangerous misuse of statistics by FISHY, which demonstrated his inability to distinguish between numbers and percentages. This was explained to him several times, not just by me, and yet he still failed to grasp the very simple concept, or just couldn't bear to be proven wrong. I don't recall an acknowledgement of his mistake, or an apology for posting misleading figures to make a spurious argument about the effectiveness of the covid vaccines.

To put it simply, he used numbers to claim that more vaccinated people died than unvaccinated, while ignoring the fact that the first group far outnumbered the second, and utterly failing to appreciate why this made a world of difference.

A hypothetical example would be if, for every hundred people getting their jabs, there were ten who refused, and twelve vaccinated people still got covid and died, while only nine died unvaccinated. FISHY was seeking to make a direct comparison between the number of deaths [i.e. more deaths among the vaccinated than among the unvaccinated ] without taking any account of the number of survivors in each group, which in this case would be eighty-eight, or 88%, of those who had been vaccinated, compared with just one, or 10%, of those who hadn't.

In case FISHY is still in the dark, I'll give him an analogy more appropriate for this thread. A thousand people gather in a public place to see a famous person. A small group of protesters stand together, away from the main crowd. A disaffected young man approaches with a loaded gun and a bad attitude. Suddenly, he opens fire on the nearest target and all but one of the protesters are killed or badly wounded. He then heads towards the excited crowd and manages to kill or injure twice as many fans as there were protesters, before being cornered and turning the gun on himself.

The gunman had the ability to shoot at both groups of people regardless, and more fans fell than protesters. But only in FISHY's world would this mean that he was less likely, or no more likely, to be shot if he'd been among the protesters.

I don't know about anyone else, but it doesn't give me any confidence in FISHY's ability to reason his way out of a bag of chips.

Love,

Caz
X

If you’re hoping that Fishy (or George) will ever own up to a mistake Caz then you’ll have a seriously long wait I’m afraid.

[Fiver]

Hill and Moorman testified that there was a shot after the fatal shot.

That is not what Clint Hill said.

Clint Hill's testimony is clear that the only shots he heard were the ones that hit JFK in the throat and the one that hit him in the head.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

That is not what Clint Hill said.

Clint Hill's testimony is clear that the only shots he heard were the ones that hit JFK in the throat and the one that hit him in the head.

Two other Secret Service agents testified that they heard a double shot, i.e. two shots almost at the same time, at the end of the sequence.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hill does not support your theory.

"That shot hit him in the back of the head and then it erupted out of the upper right quadrant just above the ear. And it blew that portion of the skull, which was still attached to the scalp, forward like a flap, kinda, and out of that wound gushed blood and bone fragments and brain matter all over the back of the car. All over me. All over Mrs Kennedy. " - Clint Hill

I do not see how Clint Hill's testimony supports the Warren Commission Report.

According to the WCR, Kennedy was hit in the back of the neck.

According to Hill, he was hit about six inches below the neckline.

According to the WCR, the back of Kennedy's head was intact.

According to Hill, the right back portion was blown away.

It is claimed similarly that Connally supported the WCR.

He did say he did.

But he was quite definite that he and Kennedy were hit by separate bullets, which refutes the WCR's Single Bullet Theory and proves that there was a conspiracy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I do not see how Clint Hill's testimony supports the Warren Commission Report.

According to the WCR, Kennedy was hit in the back of the neck.

According to Hill, he was hit about six inches below the neckline.

According to the WCR, the back of Kennedy's head was intact.

According to Hill, the right back portion was blown away.

It is claimed similarly that Connally supported the WCR.

He did say he did.

But he was quite definite that he and Kennedy were hit by separate bullets, which refutes the WCR's Single Bullet Theory and proves that there was a conspiracy.

No it doesn’t!!

Various witnesses heard 2 shots, 3 shots, 4 shots or more. Some witnesses thought that the shots came from the Knoll. Some said they came from the TSBD. A few named other places. Only 5% said that they thought that the shots came from more than one direction. So how can you claim ‘proof’ of a conspiracy by cherrypicking a couple of them? How can you claim this and expect to be taken seriously?

The extent and location of Kennedy’s injuries can be clearly seen on the Zapruder Film, on the autopsy photos and on the x-rays and in the pathologists report. That should be more than enough for any clear thinking, fair minded person. In a court of law Oswald would have been found guilty after about 5 minutes of jury deliberations because there can be no other verdict.

Any you are of course, like you’re fellow conspiracists, revealing your true colours. You’re absolutely fine at asking questions and making points but you are pathologically incapable of making meaningful responses to questions and points (if any at all….and it’s usually the case that you completely avoid them)

[Herlock Sholmes]

So it’s clear to all what we are up against. Myself, Wulf, Caz, Fiver and Frank all respond to questions and points whilst George, Fishy, Cobalt and PI point blank refuse. They ignore, obfuscate, duck and dive, make things up, cherrypick, character assassinate without evidence, refuse to admit to error and respond to questions with a series of questions of their own. And they clearly do this because they have no answers, certainly not sensible ones, so they’re left waffling about Mexico and the CIA and Oswald’s language skills and claiming to know more than Nobel Physicists between embarrassing bleats of ‘fake’ and ‘forgery.’

The conspiracy fantasy has been laid bare and the only reason that more people don’t realise it is that they only get to hear the fantasists side of the story. Those that have built the bandwagon and ride it all the way to the bank. It’s a sad reflection on society.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

.

Mr. Ball: Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in the motorcade?
Mr. Martin: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the car you were to keep?
Mr. Martin: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: What were those instructions?
Mr. Martin: They [Secret Service] instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear of his car, about the rear bumper.
Mr. Ball: I think that's all, Officer.

(DPD motorcycle officer Billy Joe Martin to the Warren Commission)



Hill, quoting Martin:

...they told us out at Love Field right after Kennedy's plane landed...Well, while Kennedy was busy shaking hands with all the well-wishers at the airport, Johnson's Secret Service people came over to the motorcycle cops and gave us a bunch of instructions...They also ordered us into the damndest escort formation I've ever seen. Ordinarily, you bracket the car with four motorcycles, one on each fender. But this time, they told the four of us [Martin, Hargis, Chaney, & Jackson] assigned to the President's car there'd be no forward escorts. We were to stay well to the back and not let ourselves get ahead of the car's rear wheels under any circumstances. I'd never heard of a formation like that, much less ridden in one, but they said they wanted to let the crowds have an unrestricted view of the president. Well, I guess somebody got an 'unrestricted view' of him, all right.

(JFK: The Last Dissenting Witness (1992), pp. 112-114)



Mr. Curry. In the planning of this motorcade, we had
had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret
Service didn't want that many.
Mr. Rankin.
Did they tell you why?
Mr. Curry.
We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they
asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the
motorcade, which we did.

(Police Chief Curry to the Warren Commission)



The somebody with an unrestricted view of the President was standing behind the picket fence.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.

Mr. Ball: Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in the motorcade?
Mr. Martin: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the car you were to keep?
Mr. Martin: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: What were those instructions?
Mr. Martin: They [Secret Service] instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear of his car, about the rear bumper.
Mr. Ball: I think that's all, Officer.

(DPD motorcycle officer Billy Joe Martin to the Warren Commission)



Hill, quoting Martin:

...they told us out at Love Field right after Kennedy's plane landed...Well, while Kennedy was busy shaking hands with all the well-wishers at the airport, Johnson's Secret Service people came over to the motorcycle cops and gave us a bunch of instructions...They also ordered us into the damndest escort formation I've ever seen. Ordinarily, you bracket the car with four motorcycles, one on each fender. But this time, they told the four of us [Martin, Hargis, Chaney, & Jackson] assigned to the President's car there'd be no forward escorts. We were to stay well to the back and not let ourselves get ahead of the car's rear wheels under any circumstances. I'd never heard of a formation like that, much less ridden in one, but they said they wanted to let the crowds have an unrestricted view of the president. Well, I guess somebody got an 'unrestricted view' of him, all right.

(JFK: The Last Dissenting Witness (1992), pp. 112-114)



Mr. Curry. In the planning of this motorcade, we had
had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret
Service didn't want that many.
Mr. Rankin.
Did they tell you why?
Mr. Curry.
We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they
asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the
motorcade, which we did.

(Police Chief Curry to the Warren Commission)



The somebody with an unrestricted view of the President was standing behind the picket fence.

There’s a video on here…

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Security

It shows Kennedy’s visit to San Diego on 6th June 1963. It’s shows Airforce One at Lindbergh Field and the President’s motorcade going through the street of San Diego.

Notice anything?

Kennedy is in the very same limousine that he was in when he was killed. The same basic configuration of cars and motorcycles, not a single Secret Service agent riding the bumper and no military aid sitting in the front between the two Secret Service men (as is often mentioned as an issue by CT’s)

So the security in San Diego was exactly the same as in Dallas - perhaps the conspirators didn’t know that San Diego didn’t have a Grassy Knoll?


Another conspiracy theorist fallacy disposed of.

[cobalt]

Oswald's alibi is pretty good. He saw Junior Jarman and Harold Norman around 7 minutes before the assassination on the ground floor. Couple this with Bonnie Ray Williams account of eating his lunch on the 6th floor from noon until around 12.20 and the very concept of Oswald being on the 6th floor is for the birds. But there are more birds than humans.

Of course it's not a cast iron alibi: Oswald wasn't seen anywhere at the time of the assassination. (That applies to the case for the prosecution voiced by FBI.)But if he had been elsewhere I am sure we would be told his alibi was 'too perfect' and signified a predisposed plan to remove himself from the scene. Oswald is damned is he does, and damned if he doesn't. Which is what happens when you ae prosecuted without a defence lawyer. Prosecuted by an FBI whose J. Edgar Hoover denied the existence of a 'mafia' as late as 1956. He was too busy hunting down subversives.