JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

Yes, he described him as standing up but that’s entirely understandable. How could he have know the distance between the floor and the bottom of the window. In other buildings a man leaning on the window would have been standing. Brennan couldn’t see his lower half.

Brennan is a strong witness by anyone’s standards. Perhaps not so much on description became we know witnesses can be mistaken but picking the right window.

Your missing the point here my friend. It is impossible to shoot through that open window while standing.... unless you are only two feet tall. The fact that Brennan claims he saw a standing man shoot through the open window either renders his testimony unbelievable or indicates that the standing man that he saw shooting was in another location..

[GBinOz]

Indeed, he doesn't, Fiver.

This is Knott Lab's representation of frame 225:



This is frame 225 of the Zapruder film:



This are frames 222 & 223:



It's clear that Kennedy was hit before frame 225 and that Connally was more turned to his right in frames 222 & 223 than in 225. Who's to say that the two men weren't aligned in those frames? Who's to say that Connally hadn't been sitting like that for a number of frames until frame 224? Knott Lab doesn't answer this question.

Hi Frank,

Please forgive me if I am mis-understanding, but you appear to be saying that since no one can see what is happening behind the sign, it can't be known that they weren't aligned at that time - so Knott Lab is wrong and the SBT is right?

You have previously cited Connally's lapel eversion at frame 224 as evidence of the SBT, but this occurred after the point that you are now saying Kennedy may have been hit, and the hole in the front of Connally's suit is nowhere near the lapel. Have you noticed that just after that frame Connally appear to "swat" at something on his left side with his hat?

Connally said he turned to the right and was hit as he turned back to the left and was almost facing forward. As I understand your theory, you are saying that at frame 225 he has already completed the described procedure, having turned right and back to the left without it being seen because he was behind the sign. But I then see him repeat this procedure without showing the distress of having been shot through the chest, the wrist and the thigh apart from a slight grimace as he commences the turn. People are often caught with unusual facial expressions in single frames. I see the slight drop in his shoulder as part of the turning process.

When Connally viewed the Zapruder film I believe, from memory, that he identified around frame 234 as when he was hit - not a win for either of our theories but a contradiction of the SBT.

Regards, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

You’re missing the point here my friend. It is impossible to shoot through that open window while standing.... unless you are only two feet tall. The fact that Brennan claims he saw a standing man shoot through the open window either renders his testimony unbelievable or indicates that the standing man that he saw shooting was in another location..

He couldnt see the lower part of his body though George. He just made an assumption that he was standing. How many people would have guessed that someone seen at a window, leaning on the sill, wasn’t standing? He didn’t see Oswald’s legs. This doesn’t detract from his statement one iota.

[FrankO]

If Kennedy were hit by a high velocity bullet than why in the frames you show is Connally not reacting?

Because he starts reacting at frame 224.

I guess it depends on what you are paying attention too..Frank.

It would appear so, Patrick.

Also why did the 2 FBI Agents present and only 2 feet away from Kennedys body at the autopsy in Bethesda say that the back wound, that Humes did not trace, was below the right shoulder blade?

On a minor note, I don’t think they ever said the back wound was below the right shoulder blade. If that were true, then it would have entered at the level of vertebrae T8, at least some 10 centimetres/4 inches lower than where dr. Burkley put it (at about the level of T3). And I don’t know why Sibert & O’Neill say it was where they said it was.
What I do know, is that, if we assume it entered at about the level of T3, then it would have gone right through the right lung. If we’d assume it never went through the body, but only went in a couple of centimetres, then my questions would be:
- Is it possible for a bullet to not go into a body any further than a few centimetres? Would that be something normal to expect?
- Why would someone trying to kill somebody use a bullet that possibly wouldn’t even go through a body?

Was Connally still holding his hat in Frame 272 when his wrist was supposedly shattered?

Yes, from at least frame 230 Connally is to be seen holding his hat with his right hand until about frame 279 when it disappears out of view and then again between frames 320 and 330. So, he either held on to his hat even though his wrist was already hit or he was hit in the wrist after frame 330.

[FrankO]

https://knottlab.com/wp-content/uplo...Shift-Z225.jpg

If you are going to dispute Knott Labs at least use their correct representation

I'd have expected all the representations correct, Patrick. Isn't the one I used also seen in their video?

[Patrick Differ]

Frank you can't be serious.

[GBinOz]

What I do know, is that, if we assume it entered at about the level of T3, then it would have gone right through the right lung. If we’d assume it never went through the body, but only went in a couple of centimetres, then my questions would be:
- Is it possible for a bullet to not go into a body any further than a few centimetres? Would that be something normal to expect?
- Why would someone trying to kill somebody use a bullet that possibly wouldn’t even go through a body?


Yes, from at least frame 230 Connally is to be seen holding his hat with his right hand until about frame 279 when it disappears out of view and then again between frames 320 and 330. So, he either held on to his hat even though his wrist was already hit or he was hit in the wrist after frame 330.

Hi Frank,

The reason for a bullet to not go into a body any further than a few centimetres is a reduction in the effective powder charge. This could be attributed to old powder not igniting fully, a hand loaded cartridge using a reduced powder load, or a bullet being shot through a larger calibre rifle using a sabot which allows gas to escape down the sides of the smaller diameter projectile. The latter would preserve the barrel markings of a projectile fired through a lesser calibre rifle into cotton wading before being fired again using a hand loaded round and a sabot in a larger calibre rifle.

The defective powder would explain a failure of an attempt to kill, but a reduced hand load and a sabot would indicate a deliberate attempt to leave evidence in the form of a nearly undamaged projectile.

While Connally's hat does reappear at frame 320, it is not clear in the film that he is still holding it.

Regards, George

[GBinOz]

He couldnt see the lower part of his body though George. He just made an assumption that he was standing. How many people would have guessed that someone seen at a window, leaning on the sill, wasn’t standing? He didn’t see Oswald’s legs. This doesn’t detract from his statement one iota.

Part of Brennan's statement to the police on the day:
I was looking at the man in this window at the time of the last explosion. Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry. I could see this man from about his belt up.

Part of Brennan's report to the FBI on the day:
The man he observed in the window had what appeared to be a "heavy" rifle in his hands. He could not tell whether or not this rifle had a telescopic sight, as the rifle was protruding only about half its length outside the window. He was positive that after he had observed this man in the window, he saw this person take "deliberate aim" and fire a shot. He then observed this person take the rifle from his shoulder and hold it by the barrel of the rifle, as if he were resting the but of the rifle on the floor. He said this individual observed the scene on the street below, momentarily, and then stepped back from the window.

This is a photo taken just before the shooting.



The window on the sixth floor is at a lower position than those of the fifth floor. Can you estimate the height and weight of the two men at the windows? Brennan estimate the man on the sixth floor was 5'10" and 165-170 lbs - Oswald's military records designated him at 5'8" and 135 lbs.

Can you seriously describe to me how Brennan could have seen a man "from his belt up" shooting through that gap in the sixth floor window?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Part of Brennan's statement to the police on the day:
I was looking at the man in this window at the time of the last explosion. Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry. I could see this man from about his belt up.

Part of Brennan's report to the FBI on the day:
The man he observed in the window had what appeared to be a "heavy" rifle in his hands. He could not tell whether or not this rifle had a telescopic sight, as the rifle was protruding only about half its length outside the window. He was positive that after he had observed this man in the window, he saw this person take "deliberate aim" and fire a shot. He then observed this person take the rifle from his shoulder and hold it by the barrel of the rifle, as if he were resting the but of the rifle on the floor. He said this individual observed the scene on the street below, momentarily, and then stepped back from the window.

This is a photo taken just before the shooting.



The window on the sixth floor is at a lower position than those of the fifth floor. Can you estimate the height and weight of the two men at the windows? Brennan estimate the man on the sixth floor was 5'10" and 165-170 lbs - Oswald's military records designated him at 5'8" and 135 lbs.

Can you seriously describe to me how Brennan could have seen a man "from his belt up" shooting through that gap in the sixth floor window?

Well that photo doesn’t help much does it George. But from Brennan’s position across the road I can easily see how he might have seen a man from his belt up.

George, do you really believe that Brennan was lying when he said that he’d seen a man in that 6th floor window?

[GBinOz]

Well that photo doesn’t help much does it George. But from Brennan’s position across the road I can easily see how he might have seen a man from his belt up.

George, do you really believe that Brennan was lying when he said that he’d seen a man in that 6th floor window?

You mean from this perspective?:



Not lying......mistaken.

[FrankO]

The reason for a bullet to not go into a body any further than a few centimetres is a reduction in the effective powder charge. This could be attributed to old powder not igniting fully, a hand loaded cartridge using a reduced powder load, or a bullet being shot through a larger calibre rifle using a sabot which allows gas to escape down the sides of the smaller diameter projectile. The latter would preserve the barrel markings of a projectile fired through a lesser calibre rifle into cotton wading before being fired again using a hand loaded round and a sabot in a larger calibre rifle.

Thanks for info, George!

The defective powder would explain a failure of an attempt to kill, but a reduced hand load and a sabot would indicate a deliberate attempt to leave evidence in the form of a nearly undamaged projectile.

Thanks for the possible explanations, although I don't know if I find especially the latter convincing.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Please forgive me if I am mis-understanding, but you appear to be saying that since no one can see what is happening behind the sign, it can't be known that they weren't aligned at that time - so Knott Lab is wrong and the SBT is right?

Hi George,

I’m not necessarily saying that Knott Lab is wrong and SBT is right. What I am saying is that:
- the frame Knott used to base their conclusion on, frame 225, is a frame in which the president is already reacting to being hit, and so, it’s not a good frame.
- in frame 223, the frame just before Connally starts reacting (whether to being hit or only hearing a shot), Connally’s turned more to his right and, therefore, possibly correctly aligned for the SB.
And, yes, it can’t be known that they weren’t aligned when they were behind the sign, nor that they were, although it seems that Connally disappeared behind the sign in more or less the same position as he reappeared from behind it, in frame 222.

You have previously cited Connally's lapel eversion at frame 224 as evidence of the SBT, but this occurred after the point that you are now saying Kennedy may have been hit, and the hole in the front of Connally's suit is nowhere near the lapel. Have you noticed that just after that frame Connally appear to "swat" at something on his left side with his hat?

I have conceded that the lapel movement may have been caused by a gust of wind, as you suggested, although I’d find that a bit coincidental, seeing that that’s not the only thing happening between frames 223 and 231. The more important things – in my view – are that:
- he seems to pull up (shrug) his shoulders, especially his left, which he moves back at the same time
- he seems to slide down somewhat (his head is clearly lower by frame 229 than in 226 and before that)
- he moves down his right shoulder as if he’s been stung in the side between frames 226/227 and 229/230
Whilst he’s doing all that, he’s also moving his hat up & down, but I don’t particularly have the impression that he’s ‘swatting’ at something to his left.

Connally said he turned to the right and was hit as he turned back to the left and was almost facing forward. As I understand your theory, you are saying that at frame 225 he has already completed the described procedure, having turned right and back to the left without it being seen because he was behind the sign.

That is because between frames 224 and 231 is the only time Connally can be seen turning to his left. So, an idea of mine was that this turn to look over his right shoulder (which he can’t be seen doing in frames 222 & 223) was before that, behind the sign (or even before that).

But I then see him repeat this procedure without showing the distress of having been shot through the chest, the wrist and the thigh apart from a slight grimace as he commences the turn.

We see him making a very clear and extreme turn to look over his right shoulder, yes, but we don’t see him turning back to his left. Instead, he leans back into his wife’s lap.

So, while the extreme look over his right shoulder corresponds with Connally’s statements, the latter part clearly doesn’t.

When Connally viewed the Zapruder film I believe, from memory, that he identified around frame 234 as when he was hit - not a win for either of our theories but a contradiction of the SBT.

True enough, but I don’t find that a problem, as memory isn’t a recording machine. But even if he was only hit around frame 234, he still held onto his hat until at least frame 279.

Now, I've got to go and finish (writing) my 2nd book! This JFK business is taking up too much of my time.

All the best,
Frank

[Fiver]

How many Oswalds types did the CIA set up with the same scenario as Dallas? High powered rifle from a tall building?
Try Chicago, Tampa, Miami, LA, and San Antonio. And they all had chosen Patsys from the FPCC, and like Oswald, were from the military.

Your entire post is stated as fact, yet you continue to provide no evidence for any of your claims.

[Patrick Differ]

Fiver i guess you aren't paying attention. Well catalogued in Chokeholds- names, places, events...plus their sources

[Herlock Sholmes]

You mean from this perspective?:



Not lying......mistaken.

Brennan wasn’t looking from that position. That’s a view from someone standing below. Brennan wasn’t looking across the road. So he sees someone moving around before the shots then again when the shots are occurring and it’s all a mistake? And the person that he mistakenly describes just happens to look like Oswald. Come on George. Brennan saw Oswald. Absolutely no doubt. Others saw him too.