JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Herlock Sholmes]

How many of these bad 'reviews' were written by someone who had actually read the book?

I vaguely recall a similar thing on some distant thread from the past, cherry picking Amazon reviews. It's not exactly a reliable measure.

It’s such a divisive subject Al, as we’ve seen. There are people on here who are clearly interested in the case but simply refuse to buy it because they know Bugliosi’s conclusion. As I said in an earlier post can you imagine someone of the stature of a Michael Mansfield bringing out a 1600 study of the ripper case after researching for 20 years and unbiased ripperologists refuse to read it? I’d say that this speaks volumes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No curtain rods were ever found at the Book Depository.

That is the official position. In fact it would have to be the official position since the WC case is based on Oswald carrying a rifle into his place of work. Any curtain rods which turned up later would not be welcomed especially if, like Oswald's clipboard, they were found after his death.

This is just woeful misinformation. Pure dishonesty.The TSBD was searched…especially the 6th floor and no curtain rods were ever found….and I do mean ever. You make a pathetic attempt to suggest that some might have been found later. Dishonesty pure and simple.

This rifle was claimed by the WC to have been sneaked into the TSBD inside a specially constructed paper bag made of materials available inside the TSBD. No one saw Oswald construct the bag

The fact that no one saw him make the bag is just so irrelevant that it doesn’t really merit an answer. No one saw him put his shoes on either. The bag was seen being carried by Oswald by 2 perfectly normal people with no axe to grind or reason to lie.

but then nobody saw him with a rifle either so it hardly mattered to the WC.

As Oswald didn’t march into work with the rifle over his shoulder it’s probably not surprising that no one saw it.

This means the empty bag must have been taken back to Irving the day before and, for reasons unclear, concealed from Frazier by Oswald when he was being given a lift.

The bag was made of paper and was easily foldable and could have been put in his pocket or into his lunch box . And how can you be sure that he made it at work? How do you know that he didn’t take some paper and tape home with him? Do you think that a man who was planning to kill the President was too principled to steal from work?

I say reasons unclear since Oswald had no possibility of concealing the bag from Frazier the following morning. What Oswald did manage to do, and quite convincingly, was to wrap and hold the paper bag in such a way as to make it appear smaller than it actually was. By the time he entered the TSBD he had mastered the knack of making it disappear altogether.

What a pathetic, devious piece of twisting. You are now an honorary member of the CT club.

Lee Harvey Oswald came to Irving on the Thursday evening for the first time ever.

He told Buell Frazier that he was collecting some curtain rods. This was a lie. He lived in a rooming house and couldn’t change the curtain rods unless he received permission from the Landlady (per the Landlady) and he hadn’t.

Frazier’s sister confirmed that her brother had informed her of why Oswald had come to Irving on the Thursday (the curtain rods lie)

He hadn’t mentioned curtain rods to Marina or Ruth Paine.

Next morning both Frazier and Randle saw him with a bulky package…..much bulkier than his usual lunch pack….so much so that Frazier said that he was surprised to see that Oswald had no lunchpack with him.

Oswald told him that it was curtain rods.

To fit a disassembled rifle the package would have needed to have been 38 inches long. Randle’s first estimate, recorded in an interview, was that it was around 3 feet long. Frazier who only saw it briefly on the back seat and then again as Oswald rushed ahead into the TSBD estimated that it was around 2 feet long but it was difficult to tell due to the way it was carried. Randle next reduced her estimation to 2 feet (possibly deferring to her brothers estimation?)

…….

So…..Oswald tells Frazier twice about the rods over 2 days and Randle confirmed that Frazier mentioned them to him.

Oswald was certainly carrying a package that was long and much too bulky to have been a lunch pack.

Randle’s initial estimation was pretty much spot on. Two later estimates two short but they both admitted to only getting brief looks and the way that Oswald carried the package made it difficult to estimate accurately.

So…..100% certainly Oswald lied about the curtain rods.

100% certainly he was carrying a package much too long and bulky to have been a lunch box. 2 out of 3 estimates got the size wrong.

And his own wife, on the very day of the murder told the police that her husband owned a rifle that was in the garage….but it was gone.


You can do as much embarrassing twisting as you like Cobalt, and PI, George and Fishy will love you for it, but the evidence shows that Oswald lied. That he took his gun to work is proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

100% guilty as charged. Your hero is a murderer.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What’s also interesting Fiver is when we compare Marguerite Oswald’s character as testified to by those who knew and met her. Someone who thought that she was far more important that she actually was. Someone that felt that the world didn’t give her the respect that she deserved. Someone unbalanced.

Sound familiar?

Why don't you finish what you started writing, Herlock?

I'm sure everyone would be interested to know the identity of the

Someone who thought that he/she was far more important that he/she actually was. Someone that felt that the world didn’t give him/her the respect that he/she deserved. Someone unbalanced [and who] sounds familiar.

Why don't you identify the person you have in mind?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why don't you finish what you started writing, Herlock?

I'm sure everyone would be interested to know the identity of the

Someone who thought that he/she was far more important that he/she actually was. Someone that felt that the world didn’t give him/her the respect that he/she deserved. Someone unbalanced [and who] sounds familiar.

Why don't you identify the person you have in mind?

The post is complete. What are you talking about?

And why did you misquote me? I didn’t uses he/she I said she.

Do I really need to identify the person I was talking about? If you need it spelling out then you’re beyond hope (well, actually you’re beyond hope anyway)

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Do I really need to identify the person I was talking about? If you need it spelling out then you’re beyond hope (well, actually you’re beyond hope anyway)

I think you should.

[Admin]

Hello, this is your friendly neighborhood Admin.

I am going to take this time to remind folks that this is not a JTR related thread and therefore irrelevant to our purpose and therefore liable to be closed down permanently if it becomes a time-suck what with people not knowing how to act right or like they are in serious lack of proper raising. Mind your manners, ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to keep to discussing this topic, because I am entirely too frazzled right now to deal with this bullshit and am liable to take you all out behind the woodshed for a talking-to.

As it stands now, if I infracted for each post that breaks a rule, some of you would not be returning til 2027. I am getting increasingly likely to do it. The quiet will be ... nice.

Things of note also: moderators are not immune from being raked over the coals for their opinions, beliefs or position statements on theory. Moderators get immunity in ONE REGARD only which is in carrying out moderator functions or tasks. If a moderator tells you that they think JFK was killed by martians or a conspiracy of government agents reaching all the way to the Kremlin, you are welcome to dispute it and call it nutball, to your heart's content as long as you don't break any of the forum rules in doing it, same as with any other poster. Moderators opinions are of no more import than anyone else on this forum. Nobody is a god. Except me, when I am posting under the Admin heading. When a moderator tells you to quit breaking the rules, then you don't argue. If a moderator is arguing case theory, they have to expect criticism and disagreement the same as anyone else. We say this because we've got multiple Report Posts about a poster baiting or inciting or arguing against a moderator regarding theory. This is not against the rules, don't Report it.

What is against the rules is the MULTIPLE and INCESSANT personal attacks on this thread. I am closing the thread until tomorrow afternoon, because frankly I think you could all do with a nice walk in the fresh air. The first person who violates the personal attack rule once the thread is re-opened will get a 3 month ban. You may consider this a gift, because for many of you, if I infracted you right now for each of the posts on this thread, your suspension would be far, far longer.

Have a lovely weekend everyone.

[FISHY1118]

Thanks Admin , the walk in the fresh air did me good , I look forward to the ongoing debate of this topic with my and fellow posters opinions on the subject now with with peace and harmony.

[Herlock Sholmes]

More from Shenon’s book on the Warren Commission.

On November 23rd, the Deputy Director of the CIA Richard Helms set up a team of around 30 analysts from around Langley, led by John Whitten, to look for evidence about Oswald and any foreign conspiracy. Whitten discovered a modest agency file on Oswald’s defection but what was more interesting to him was that he found evidence from his colleagues in Mexico that they had Oswald under surveillance during his trip to Mexico in September. Helms said that no one at the CIA should talk about Oswald to anyone outside the agency unless Whitten was present. Whitten said that Angleton was “….extremely embittered that I was entrusted with the investigation and he wasn’t.” Angleton was close to Hoover and obsessed by communists. He wouldn’t allow anyone to criticise the FBI.

Given the circumstances of Oswald’s aborted defection Whitten knew that one of the first things that the Commission would want to know was if he’d ever worked for the CIA. He quickly discovered that the answer was no. “Oswald was a person of a type who would never have been recruited by the agency to work behind the Iron Curtain or anywhere else…….Oswald’s whole pattern of life was that of a very badly, emotionally imbalanced young man.”

Helms told Whitten to cooperate fully with the Commission apart from telling them how they got their information like the fact that the Russian and Cuban embassies were both bugged….they didn’t want that becoming public for very obvious reasons. The CIA’s section Chief at Mexico City, Winston Scott, seems a suspicious type. His close colleague and deputy Ann Goodpasture said that he made sure that everything to do with Oswald was dealt with by him. She didn’t think that he always reported back honestly to Langley.

Whitten was angry to find out that Angleton appeared to be, and openly admitted to, running his own Oswald investigation against Helms orders but Helms wouldn’t step in. When Whitten was called to a meeting with Nicholas Katzenbach to discuss the FBI report he was angry to find out what information he hadn’t received, like Oswald’s work with the FPCC and the attempt on Walker’s life or that Oswald had kept a diary. At a meeting between Helms and his deputies, Angleton said that Whitten’s report was useless. Whitten explained the information that had been withheld from him which Angleton clearly knew about (especially given Angleton’s friendship with Hoover. Angleton said that the investigation should be taken from Whitten and given to him. Helms agreed. When he took over the focus moved away from Cuba and on to Russia.

Angleton’s representative Raymond Rocco told Slawson during a briefing on KGB assassinations that he had something that he couldn’t tell anyone. That there had been a defection by a mid-ranking KGB Officer called Yuri Nosenko. He’d seen Oswald’s file in Russia and had seen that Oswald was not a Russian spy.

On February 20th Angleton received a memo that at least 37 documents had disappeared from the CIA’s internal file on Oswald. Shenon writes: “The commission’s records suggest it’s investigators were never told that, for at least some period of time, dozens of documents about Oswald had vanished.”

Initially Warren thought that Kennedy might have been killed as part of a Soviet plot which understandably worried him greatly given the potential ramifications but after a week of reading the reports he was convince that Oswald was the lone assassin though he never mentioned this to anyone else and counsels like Rankin confirmed this. What is certainly interesting, and relevant, is the fact that many of the counsels employed by the commission set to work assuming that they would be uncovering some sort of conspiracy. David Bellin said:”I assumed conspiracy.” He suspected a revenge killing by the Cuban’s over The Bay of Pigs. Burt Griffin said:” My initial reaction was it was some segregationist southerners.” Griffin had little time or respect for the FBI either, labelling them: “….a bunch of bureaucrats.”

A rumour spread around Dallas originating with Waggoner Carr and Henry Wade that Oswald had been in the pay of the FBI and was receiving $200/month from them. Hoover categorically denied this. Many of the commission were beginning to lose faith in the level of cooperation from the FBI. Hoover, initially furious at criticisms of their report on Oswald, came to accept the errors within it without accepting any personal responsibility so he. instructed that 17 officers be disciplined (including James Hosty.) Hoover said the Oswald should have been on the FBI’s Security Index which would have been shared with the Secret Service before Kennedy’s visit.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ambassador Mann of the US embassy in Mexico City was convinced, almost from the moment of the assassination, that Oswald had killed Kennedy on behalf of Castro. He couldn’t understand why neither the CIA or the FBI were open to this suggestion. The FBI’s top official at the embassy Clark Anderson said that they knew exactly when Oswald had entered Mexico City and exactly when he left but he didn’t think that they could establish where he’d been every day that he’d been there. Mann said that he wanted to know more about Silvia Duran who he called “promiscuous.” There were rumours of an affair between her and the former Cuban ambassador to Mexico. On the day of the assassination Scott (the CIA station chief) had requested that the Mexican authorities arrest and interrogate her. Mann had an “instinctive feeling,” that she didn’t only deal with Oswald on his visa application.

In a memo to FBI headquarters 2 days after the assassination Anderson reported Mann’s belief that the Soviet Union were “much to sophisticated” to have been involved but that Castro was “stupid enough to have participated.” Mann suspected that Oswald’s visit to Mexico City was to establish a “gateway route” after the assassination. Anderson proposed that FBI headquarters pull all Cuban sources in to look into the claims but the response from an FBI supervisor was “Not desirable……would serve no purpose.”

On November 26th a Nicaraguan government spy called Gilberto Alvarado told the US embassy that Oswald had been paid off by the Castro government. Alvarado, who had past contact with the CIA, said that he’d been at the Cuban embassy, Mexico City in September where he’s seen a “red-haired Negro man” hand over $6500 as payment for the assassination. Alvarado had been there on an assignment for the Nicaraguan government who were anti-Communist. Mann reported this to the state department.

[Herlock Sholmes]

On November 26th the CIA had recorded a phone call between Cuban President Osvaldo Dorticós and the Cuban ambassador to Mexico Joaquin Armas in which Armas described the questions that the Mexicans had asked Duran about her alleged relations with Oswald and the money that he’d allegedly received. She denied this. Apparently Dorticós sounded anxious. Mann cabled Washington and told them that he thought that this anxiety indicated that there might be some truth in the story. All of this made its way to Johnson who said that he’d mentioned it to Warren in their meeting. Mann felt that he was being fully briefed by the FBI so he requested that they send a supervisor to investigate the story. Hoover dismissed Mann as:” one of those pdeudo investigators, a Sherlock Holmes’” who was trying to tell the FBI their business. Hoover agreed to look into the story though and despatched supervisor Lawrence Keenan who came to look on the assignment as bizarre. He believed that he was part of a charade to avert possible nuclear war over Cuba.

After arriving in Mexico he decided that he wanted to talk to Alvarado but the CIA had turned him over to the Mexicans. The CIA then reported that the investigation had fallen apart as the Mexican government told them that had said that he’d invented the ho story because he hated Castro and he thought that the story would cause the USA to take action against Cuba. Keenan left Mexico after 5 days and Alvarado went back to his original story claiming that he’d only recanted after the threat of torture.

Whilst in Mexico Keenan said they he had learned that Duran was a low level spy for Mexico and possibly the CIA. He was then transferred to San Juan. On December 14th Johnson promoted Mann to a role which meant him leaving Mexico. He felt that the CIA had no interest in getting to the bottom of the story of Oswald in Mexico.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

We had a disagreement about the 'Oswald' in Mexico City.

I said he could not have been Oswald because three witnesses said he was seversl inches shorter than Oswald and had blond hair.

You replied that all three witnesses were wrong.

Here is what Hoover said about the 'Oswald' in Mexico City:

"No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there."

Do you say that Hoover was wrong too?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The more you read about this case the more you come to see the FBI (and Hoover in particular) as nothing like the kind of super-efficient organisation that he wanted everyone to believe, so we really should take what Hoover said with a pinch of salt. Just a few examples:

The FBI’s report on the assassination was riddled with errors and assumptions. A fact that Hoover was initially unwilling to accept but it came to a point where he simply couldn’t deny the fact. He ended up disciplining 17 agents (taking no responsibility himself of course)

Hoover told Johnson that the rifle had been shipped from Chicago to a woman called A. Heidel.

Hoover said that the authorities had recovered a whole bullet which had fallen from Kennedy during a heart massage.

Hoover said that it was Oswald’s mother who had informed them that he’d kept a rifle in the garage when it was actually Marina.

Hoover thought that Oswald had fired from the 5th floor and then went up to the 6th floor to dump the rifle.

Hoover said that Oswald had engaged in a gun battle with police at the Texas Theatre.

So I’d repeat that anything Hoover says has to be considered first, placed in context, and checked against other evidence.

[Abby Normal]

The more you read about this case the more you come to see the FBI (and Hoover in particular) as nothing like the kind of super-efficient organisation that he wanted everyone to believe, so we really should take what Hoover said with a pinch of salt. Just a few examples:

The FBI’s report on the assassination was riddled with errors and assumptions. A fact that Hoover was initially unwilling to accept but it came to a point where he simply couldn’t deny the fact. He ended up disciplining 17 agents (taking no responsibility himself of course)

Hoover told Johnson that the rifle had been shipped from Chicago to a woman called A. Heidel.

Hoover said that the authorities had recovered a whole bullet which had fallen from Kennedy during a heart massage.

Hoover said that it was Oswald’s mother who had informed them that he’d kept a rifle in the garage when it was actually Marina.

Hoover thought that Oswald had fired from the 5th floor and then went up to the 6th floor to dump the rifle.

Hoover said that Oswald had engaged in a gun battle with police at the Texas Theatre.

So I’d repeat that anything Hoover says has to be considered first, placed in context, and checked against other evidence.

yeah-take anything Hoover said with a pinch of salt. He was all about preserving his and The FBIs reputation, thats it. The dude even denied the existance of the mafia for many years because he was afaid to take them on.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"No, that’s one angle that’s very confusing, for this reason—we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald’s name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man’s voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there."

(Hoover to Johnson)


The problem with assuming that the caller was Oswald is that Oswald spoke fluent Russian.

(CIA)


The CIA advised that on October 1, 1963, an extremely sensitive source had reported that an individual identified himself as Lee Oswald, who contacted the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City inquiring as to any messages. Special Agents of this Bureau, who have conversed with Oswald in Dallas, Texas, have observed photographs of the individual referred to above, and have listened to a recording of his voice. These special agents are of the opinion that the above-referred-to individual was not Lee Harvey Oswald.

(FBI memo)

[Herlock Sholmes]

yeah-take anything Hoover said with a pinch of salt. He was all about preserving his and The FBIs reputation, thats it. The dude even denied the existance of the mafia for many years because he was afaid to take them on.

There was certainly a lot of a** covering going on Abby and just like the Met and the City of London Police plenty of jealousies, poor information sharing and agenda’s being followed.