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Why is There No Definitive Book on the Zodiac Case?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Hi HS
    I have both Graysmith books. The first one Zodiac is better than the one you read. he gets a little convoluted and hard to follow in the unmasked one. The first one is more concise. Hes reliable enough, a little biased to Allen of course but IMHO for good cause:

    He was in the immediate area at the time.
    Incriminating evidence was found in his home (same typewriter, explosives etc.)
    He owned a zodiac watch.(this "coincidence" alone!)
    He basically confessed to two people who confirm.
    Bloody knife in car after LB murders.
    He was former military.
    He had a (bad)fascination with children-same as Z.
    He came up as a suspect/POI twice independently by police (this is a bigee for me).
    Surviving victim IDed him.(another bigee)
    He fits the profile of thrill killer/"lovers lane" SK to a T. Loser, loner, no relationships with women (see Son of Sam).
    He fits witness descriptions. (to add-I don't know what all this talk of he was bald-photos of him from the time frame show receding hair line with widows peak).

    obviously theres more, but these are the main ones for me.

    Regards to the exculpitary evidence:

    The zodiac was a meticulous ADA type who created complicated codes, bomb systems and letters. He said he would cover his fingertips with glue. He was seen wiping down the cab. I think its fair to assess he could(and would) also then disguise his handwriting and leave no finger prints.

    as far as DNA: Too early in the science and only partial DNA found anyway. He may have been wearing gloves and or used a sponge pad for envelopes/stamps as many people do anyway. The DNA could have been anyone who ever handled those items.
    DNA evidence way to weak to rule anyone out based on it IMHO.

    I'm not convinced he was the Z though, at about 80%. and definitely not disproven.




    no. theyre focusing on two suspects now-Lawrence Kane and Ross Sullivan.

    Kane really has nothing going for him and frankly I don't even know why he is a suspect.

    Ross Sullivan has a bit more going for him. he worked at the library where bates was killed and the staff there thought he was her killer. Newly found handwriting of Ross seems to have a lot of similarities with the Z. also apparently the show has found new DNA evidence at scene of crimes(on bates pants and on gloves found in stines cab) and looks like they will try to match to Z and possibly Ross. I'm skeptical about ross mainly because they cant even tie him to SF area.
    Thanks for that Abby,

    I nearly bought his first book but went for ‘unmasked.’ And thanks for the assessment of ALE. If he wasnt Zodiac then he seemed to go out of his way to make himself fit as a suspect.
    Do you know how the History Channel series ended? Is it Case Closed?
    Regards

    Herlock




    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      Thanks for that Abby,

      I nearly bought his first book but went for ‘unmasked.’ And thanks for the assessment of ALE. If he wasnt Zodiac then he seemed to go out of his way to make himself fit as a suspect.
      Do you know how the History Channel series ended? Is it Case Closed?
      you mean Arthur Leigh Allen? lol. not sure who ALE is.

      Do you know how the History Channel series ended? Is it Case Closed?[/
      I'm not really following to closely not sure-I hear they might stretch it out to another season, so god knows when we get there results or final conclusions back. These pseudo docus really suck. I'm sure if its anything important well actually hear it on the real news. From my earlier post, on where they are now as far as I know:

      theyre focusing on two suspects now-Lawrence Kane and Ross Sullivan.

      Kane really has nothing going for him and frankly I don't even know why he is a suspect.

      Ross Sullivan has a bit more going for him. he worked at the library where bates was killed and the staff there thought he was her killer. Newly found handwriting of Ross seems to have a lot of similarities with the Z. also apparently the show has found new DNA evidence at scene of crimes(on bates pants and on gloves found in stines cab) and looks like they will try to match to Z and possibly Ross. I'm skeptical about ross mainly because they cant even tie him to SF area.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
        The zodiac was a meticulous ADA type who created complicated codes, bomb systems and letters. He said he would cover his fingertips with glue. He was seen wiping down the cab. I think its fair to assess he could(and would) also then disguise his handwriting and leave no finger prints.
        Except for the bloodied fingerprints left in Stine's cab?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
          you mean Arthur Leigh Allen? lol. not sure who ALE is.



          I'm not really following to closely not sure-I hear they might stretch it out to another season, so god knows when we get there results or final conclusions back. These pseudo docus really suck. I'm sure if its anything important well actually hear it on the real news. From my earlier post, on where they are now as far as I know:

          theyre focusing on two suspects now-Lawrence Kane and Ross Sullivan.

          Kane really has nothing going for him and frankly I don't even know why he is a suspect.

          Ross Sullivan has a bit more going for him. he worked at the library where bates was killed and the staff there thought he was her killer. Newly found handwriting of Ross seems to have a lot of similarities with the Z. also apparently the show has found new DNA evidence at scene of crimes(on bates pants and on gloves found in stines cab) and looks like they will try to match to Z and possibly Ross. I'm skeptical about ross mainly because they cant even tie him to SF area.
          Don’t know how I managed to get ALE (then again ALE = BEER) It should have read ALA of course.
          The ‘cliffhanger’ at the end of episode three was that a guy claimed that he’d cracked one of the major cyphers (is it the 340?) and at the end of it he found the word KANE.

          If we had a ripper suspect with the same amount of evidence against him as there is against Allen he’d surely stand alone at the top of the tree?
          Regards

          Herlock




          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

          Comment


          • #35
            There is some circumstantial evidence against Arthur Leigh Allen but none of the handwriting, fingerprints or DNA were a match for him. Now, perhaps Allen did disguise his handwriting, and someone else licked the stamps and sealed the envelopes, although that's kinda fishy. But the palm prints recovered from one of the letters and the inside of Stine's cab would appear to be more conclusive.

            Comment


            • #36
              Season 2 has already been announced.

              The show started out strong, but got repetitive and wishy-washy as it went along
              “Sans arme, sans violence et sans haine”

              Comment


              • #37
                I think the series on History Channel is called The Hunt for....and then they fill in the rest with a famous true crime case name. I've already seen one on the Unabomber.

                http://www.history.com/shows/the-hun...171222080524:s

                Re Sullivan, his murder was in Southern California. They have tried to suggest the victim was an early one of the Zodiac Killer, but it seems unconvincing to me.

                Kane is a possibility for ZK.
                Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                ---------------
                Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                ---------------

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                  I think the series on History Channel is called The Hunt for....and then they fill in the rest with a famous true crime case name. I've already seen one on the Unabomber.

                  http://www.history.com/shows/the-hun...171222080524:s

                  Re Sullivan, his murder was in Southern California. They have tried to suggest the victim was an early one of the Zodiac Killer, but it seems unconvincing to me.

                  Kane is a possibility for ZK.
                  What’s the evidence for him?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    What’s the evidence for him?
                    It's in the documentary "The Hunt For" series. I think he killed the woman at Lake Tahoe, and that postcard related to it included puzzles and codes similar to the later ZK letters. He had military background and more code experience than Ross Sullivan, who apparently only checked out library books on the subject. He also had location connection to Northern California and the Bay area, far more so than Sullivan.
                    Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                    ---------------
                    Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                    ---------------

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      Thanks hs.
                      I’m gonna get.

                      Also, responded to your zodiac post, not sure if you saw.
                      Hi Abby,

                      Just finished In The Wake Of The Butcher. Well worth it in my opinion. Well written and balanced. It had be Sweeney. Surely?
                      Regards

                      Herlock




                      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        As I don’t have my Wallace case fix I thought that i might revisit Zodiac although I don’t know how far I’ll go. I read Graysmith’s Unmasked a while ago but I gave some old books away (I needed the space) and mistakenly that one was among them. I re-ordered it for £3 today and I’ll give it another read.

                        At the beginning of this thread Barn regretted that there was no ‘definitive’ book on the case (similar to Sugden perhaps) but unsurprisingly there are loads of books on the subject. I don’t know how many books (if any) that I’ll end up buying but can anyone give me some recommendations? Also are there any documentary recommendations?

                        Cheers
                        Regards

                        Herlock




                        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                          As I don’t have my Wallace case fix I thought that i might revisit Zodiac although I don’t know how far I’ll go. I read Graysmith’s Unmasked a while ago but I gave some old books away (I needed the space) and mistakenly that one was among them. I re-ordered it for £3 today and I’ll give it another read.

                          At the beginning of this thread Barn regretted that there was no ‘definitive’ book on the case (similar to Sugden perhaps) but unsurprisingly there are loads of books on the subject. I don’t know how many books (if any) that I’ll end up buying but can anyone give me some recommendations? Also are there any documentary recommendations?

                          Cheers
                          get the first graysmith book on the zodiac

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                            As I don’t have my Wallace case fix I thought that i might revisit Zodiac although I don’t know how far I’ll go. I read Graysmith’s Unmasked a while ago but I gave some old books away (I needed the space) and mistakenly that one was among them. I re-ordered it for £3 today and I’ll give it another read.

                            At the beginning of this thread Barn regretted that there was no ‘definitive’ book on the case (similar to Sugden perhaps) but unsurprisingly there are loads of books on the subject. I don’t know how many books (if any) that I’ll end up buying but can anyone give me some recommendations? Also are there any documentary recommendations?

                            Cheers
                            Hi Herlock,
                            My original post was one of puzzlement that the Zodiac case (arguably America's greatest true crime mystery) had not generated anything approaching the
                            calibre of Paul Begg and Philip Sugden's tomes on the Whitechapel case.
                            Graysmith simply cannot be trusted on anything that he says in his books.
                            Here is a link which quite forensically dismantles most of Graysmith's claims.

                            http://zodiackillerfacts.com/zodiac-...th-unmasked-2/

                            With regard to books on the Zodiac case I can recommend "America's Jack the Ripper: The Crimes and Psychology of the Zodiac Killer" by Soren Roest Korsgaard.
                            It gives a good overview of the crimes, but it's main strength is the speculation around the psychology of the killer, with particular reference to his many letters and postcards.

                            Another author to consider is Mark Hewitt, who has written three books on the Zodiac killings.

                            1. "Hunted: The Zodiac Murders", which gives a very detailed account of the crimes.
                            2. "Profiled: The Zodiac Examined", which takes a wander through the possible psychological movtives of Zodic.
                            3. "Exposed: The Zodiac Revealed", where Hewitt puts forward his preferred candidate murders.

                            The Korsgaard book is probably your best bet for a one volume overview of the Zodiac murders, but I did enjoy the Hewitt books, although I'm not convinced
                            by his arguments re the killers identity.

                            If the books are a bit expensive for you, just ask your local library to buy them for you.

                            Good Luck!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by barnflatwyngarde View Post

                              Hi Herlock,
                              My original post was one of puzzlement that the Zodiac case (arguably America's greatest true crime mystery) had not generated anything approaching the
                              calibre of Paul Begg and Philip Sugden's tomes on the Whitechapel case.
                              Graysmith simply cannot be trusted on anything that he says in his books.
                              Here is a link which quite forensically dismantles most of Graysmith's claims.

                              http://zodiackillerfacts.com/zodiac-...th-unmasked-2/

                              With regard to books on the Zodiac case I can recommend "America's Jack the Ripper: The Crimes and Psychology of the Zodiac Killer" by Soren Roest Korsgaard.
                              It gives a good overview of the crimes, but it's main strength is the speculation around the psychology of the killer, with particular reference to his many letters and postcards.

                              Another author to consider is Mark Hewitt, who has written three books on the Zodiac killings.

                              1. "Hunted: The Zodiac Murders", which gives a very detailed account of the crimes.
                              2. "Profiled: The Zodiac Examined", which takes a wander through the possible psychological movtives of Zodic.
                              3. "Exposed: The Zodiac Revealed", where Hewitt puts forward his preferred candidate murders.

                              The Korsgaard book is probably your best bet for a one volume overview of the Zodiac murders, but I did enjoy the Hewitt books, although I'm not convinced
                              by his arguments re the killers identity.

                              If the books are a bit expensive for you, just ask your local library to buy them for you.

                              Good Luck!
                              Thanks for the help Barn. I’ll certainly look into these suggestions
                              Regards

                              Herlock




                              “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                              “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                              “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                              “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                              “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The Most Dangerous Game (1932) - YouTube
                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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