Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why is There No Definitive Book on the Zodiac Case?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    Allen wasn't a match for the DNA, handwriting, or the finger/palm prints.
    Is that conclusive Harry? Didnít Graysmith mention the fact that as Allen was ambidextrous this could explain the handwriting not matching? Iím definately not arguing the point as i just donít know.

    Is Kane considered the likeliest suspect?
    Regards

    Herlock




    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      If folks were asked to nominate a definitive Ripper book, I bet most would unhesitatingly say "Sugden"
      Hello Sam,

      Long time no speak Iím sure that youíre right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?! Obviously Begg and Rumbelow would get a mention. I always wished that someone could do a ripper book with the same level of research and detail as Vincent Bugliosiís Reclaiming History (on the JFK assassination.) If youíve got twenty years to spare Sam
      Regards

      Herlock




      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

      Comment


      • #18
        Iíve just started reading ĎIn The Wake Of The Butcherí by Badal on the Cleveland Torso Murders. It was recommended to me by Howard on the JTRForum. Would this be considered the difinitive book on that case? Itís the first one that Iíve read. I donít mean the first book that Iíve read by the way
        Regards

        Herlock




        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          Iíve just read Graysmithís Zodiac Unmasked after becoming interested watching the first 3 episodes of The History Channels ĎCase Closed.í

          Iím a complete Zodiac novice but I have to say there appears to be a staggering amount of Ďpointersí to Arthur Leigh Allen? Iíve just read that many consider Graysmith unreliable. Has Allen now been dismissed/disproven as a suspect? Has this History Channel series uncovered the killer?

          Anybody know?
          Hi HS
          I have both Graysmith books. The first one Zodiac is better than the one you read. he gets a little convoluted and hard to follow in the unmasked one. The first one is more concise. Hes reliable enough, a little biased to Allen of course but IMHO for good cause:

          He was in the immediate area at the time.
          Incriminating evidence was found in his home (same typewriter, explosives etc.)
          He owned a zodiac watch.(this "coincidence" alone!)
          He basically confessed to two people who confirm.
          Bloody knife in car after LB murders.
          He was former military.
          He had a (bad)fascination with children-same as Z.
          He came up as a suspect/POI twice independently by police (this is a bigee for me).
          Surviving victim IDed him.(another bigee)
          He fits the profile of thrill killer/"lovers lane" SK to a T. Loser, loner, no relationships with women (see Son of Sam).
          He fits witness descriptions. (to add-I don't know what all this talk of he was bald-photos of him from the time frame show receding hair line with widows peak).

          obviously theres more, but these are the main ones for me.

          Regards to the exculpitary evidence:

          The zodiac was a meticulous ADA type who created complicated codes, bomb systems and letters. He said he would cover his fingertips with glue. He was seen wiping down the cab. I think its fair to assess he could(and would) also then disguise his handwriting and leave no finger prints.

          as far as DNA: Too early in the science and only partial DNA found anyway. He may have been wearing gloves and or used a sponge pad for envelopes/stamps as many people do anyway. The DNA could have been anyone who ever handled those items.
          DNA evidence way to weak to rule anyone out based on it IMHO.

          I'm not convinced he was the Z though, at about 80%. and definitely not disproven.


          Has this History Channel series uncovered the killer?
          no. theyre focusing on two suspects now-Lawrence Kane and Ross Sullivan.

          Kane really has nothing going for him and frankly I don't even know why he is a suspect.

          Ross Sullivan has a bit more going for him. he worked at the library where bates was killed and the staff there thought he was her killer. Newly found handwriting of Ross seems to have a lot of similarities with the Z. also apparently the show has found new DNA evidence at scene of crimes(on bates pants and on gloves found in stines cab) and looks like they will try to match to Z and possibly Ross. I'm skeptical about ross mainly because they cant even tie him to SF area.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            Hello Sam,

            Long time no speak Iím sure that youíre right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?! Obviously Begg and Rumbelow would get a mention. I always wished that someone could do a ripper book with the same level of research and detail as Vincent Bugliosiís Reclaiming History (on the JFK assassination.) If youíve got twenty years to spare Sam
            Hi HS

            Iím sure that youíre right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?!
            that's because he only looked at the four suspects mentioned by senior police:Ostrog, Druitt, Koz and chapman.

            His research showed ostrog was in jail in france, for the first time eliminating ostrog for sure.

            he pretty much debunked druitt and Koz and favors chapman.

            I still think koz is possible and I agree with him that chapman is strongest of the four.

            I have Koz and chapman in my top tier of six least weak suspects.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              Iíve just started reading ĎIn The Wake Of The Butcherí by Badal on the Cleveland Torso Murders. It was recommended to me by Howard on the JTRForum. Would this be considered the difinitive book on that case? Itís the first one that Iíve read. I donít mean the first book that Iíve read by the way
              Hi HS
              I'm not sure about that book...let me know what you find out as I don't have a book on the Cleveland torsos.

              However, everything I have read about it, I'm fairly sure that Dr. F. Sweeney, who Elliot ness thought did it, is the guy.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                Hello Sam,

                Long time no speak Iím sure that youíre right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?!
                Doesnt mean that Sugden's book isn't the definitive text. It's definitely in the category of "essential reading", which few others can claim to be.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, GŲtzendšmmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  If folks were asked to nominate a definitive Ripper book, I bet most would unhesitatingly say "Sugden"
                  Fair point Sam although as others have stated Chapman as the leading suspect counts against it.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    Hi HS
                    I'm not sure about that book...let me know what you find out as I don't have a book on the Cleveland torsos.

                    However, everything I have read about it, I'm fairly sure that Dr. F. Sweeney, who Elliot ness thought did it, is the guy.
                    Hi Abby,

                    Iíve only read around 80 pages but I had a skim through before I started (some nasty photographs by the way) and he says that itís not a Ďsolved ití book. But Sweeney is most prominent I think. Also at the beginning he mentions the prime suspect (Sweeney) was proven beyond all reasonable doubt. He also says that heís gained new info to show where the bodies were dismembered. Itís a good read so far. It averages around £15 on eBay (around $20 to you )
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Doesnt mean that Sugden's book isn't the definitive text. It's definitely in the category of "essential reading", which few others can claim to be.
                      No argument there Sam
                      Regards

                      Herlock




                      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                        Hi Abby,

                        Iíve only read around 80 pages but I had a skim through before I started (some nasty photographs by the way) and he says that itís not a Ďsolved ití book. But Sweeney is most prominent I think. Also at the beginning he mentions the prime suspect (Sweeney) was proven beyond all reasonable doubt. He also says that heís gained new info to show where the bodies were dismembered. Itís a good read so far. It averages around £15 on eBay (around $20 to you )
                        Thanks hs.
                        Iím gonna get.

                        Also, responded to your zodiac post, not sure if you saw.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                          Fair point Sam although as others have stated Chapman as the leading suspect counts against it.
                          Sugden's book is required reading for the content, not necessarily for the conclusions he drew.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            Hi HS
                            I'm not sure about that book...let me know what you find out as I don't have a book on the Cleveland torsos.

                            However, everything I have read about it, I'm fairly sure that Dr. F. Sweeney, who Elliot ness thought did it, is the guy.
                            I read it a few years back, and found it well worth my time. Be aware that the crime scene pictures, once having been glimpsed, cannot be unseen.
                            - Ginger

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ginger View Post
                              I read it a few years back, and found it well worth my time. Be aware that the crime scene pictures, once having been glimpsed, cannot be unseen.
                              thanks for the recommendation...and the warning!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ginger View Post
                                I read it a few years back, and found it well worth my time. Be aware that the crime scene pictures, once having been glimpsed, cannot be unseen.
                                Hi Ginger,
                                This is an updated version by the way. When Howard Brown recommended it to me he told me specifically to get the updated one as the extra information is well worth it

                                Youíre right about the photos though. Donít read just before youíre about to sit down for the Sunday joint!
                                Regards

                                Herlock




                                “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                                “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                                “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                                “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                                “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X