Why is There No Definitive Book on the Zodiac Case?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Allen wasn't a match for the DNA, handwriting, or the finger/palm prints.

Is that conclusive Harry? Didn’t Graysmith mention the fact that as Allen was ambidextrous this could explain the handwriting not matching? I’m definately not arguing the point as i just don’t know.

Is Kane considered the likeliest suspect?

[Herlock Sholmes]

If folks were asked to nominate a definitive Ripper book, I bet most would unhesitatingly say "Sugden"

Hello Sam,

Long time no speak I’m sure that you’re right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?! Obviously Begg and Rumbelow would get a mention. I always wished that someone could do a ripper book with the same level of research and detail as Vincent Bugliosi’s Reclaiming History (on the JFK assassination.) If you’ve got twenty years to spare Sam

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just started reading ‘In The Wake Of The Butcher’ by Badal on the Cleveland Torso Murders. It was recommended to me by Howard on the JTRForum. Would this be considered the difinitive book on that case? It’s the first one that I’ve read. I don’t mean the first book that I’ve read by the way

[Abby Normal]

I’ve just read Graysmith’s Zodiac Unmasked after becoming interested watching the first 3 episodes of The History Channels ‘Case Closed.’

I’m a complete Zodiac novice but I have to say there appears to be a staggering amount of ‘pointers’ to Arthur Leigh Allen? I’ve just read that many consider Graysmith unreliable. Has Allen now been dismissed/disproven as a suspect? Has this History Channel series uncovered the killer?

Anybody know?

Hi HS
I have both Graysmith books. The first one Zodiac is better than the one you read. he gets a little convoluted and hard to follow in the unmasked one. The first one is more concise. Hes reliable enough, a little biased to Allen of course but IMHO for good cause:

He was in the immediate area at the time.
Incriminating evidence was found in his home (same typewriter, explosives etc.)
He owned a zodiac watch.(this "coincidence" alone!)
He basically confessed to two people who confirm.
Bloody knife in car after LB murders.
He was former military.
He had a (bad)fascination with children-same as Z.
He came up as a suspect/POI twice independently by police (this is a bigee for me).
Surviving victim IDed him.(another bigee)
He fits the profile of thrill killer/"lovers lane" SK to a T. Loser, loner, no relationships with women (see Son of Sam).
He fits witness descriptions. (to add-I don't know what all this talk of he was bald-photos of him from the time frame show receding hair line with widows peak).

obviously theres more, but these are the main ones for me.

Regards to the exculpitary evidence:

The zodiac was a meticulous ADA type who created complicated codes, bomb systems and letters. He said he would cover his fingertips with glue. He was seen wiping down the cab. I think its fair to assess he could(and would) also then disguise his handwriting and leave no finger prints.

as far as DNA: Too early in the science and only partial DNA found anyway. He may have been wearing gloves and or used a sponge pad for envelopes/stamps as many people do anyway. The DNA could have been anyone who ever handled those items.
DNA evidence way to weak to rule anyone out based on it IMHO.

I'm not convinced he was the Z though, at about 80%. and definitely not disproven.

Has this History Channel series uncovered the killer?

no. theyre focusing on two suspects now-Lawrence Kane and Ross Sullivan.

Kane really has nothing going for him and frankly I don't even know why he is a suspect.

Ross Sullivan has a bit more going for him. he worked at the library where bates was killed and the staff there thought he was her killer. Newly found handwriting of Ross seems to have a lot of similarities with the Z. also apparently the show has found new DNA evidence at scene of crimes(on bates pants and on gloves found in stines cab) and looks like they will try to match to Z and possibly Ross. I'm skeptical about ross mainly because they cant even tie him to SF area.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Sam,

Long time no speak I’m sure that you’re right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?! Obviously Begg and Rumbelow would get a mention. I always wished that someone could do a ripper book with the same level of research and detail as Vincent Bugliosi’s Reclaiming History (on the JFK assassination.) If you’ve got twenty years to spare Sam

Hi HS

I’m sure that you’re right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?!

that's because he only looked at the four suspects mentioned by senior police:Ostrog, Druitt, Koz and chapman.

His research showed ostrog was in jail in france, for the first time eliminating ostrog for sure.

he pretty much debunked druitt and Koz and favors chapman.

I still think koz is possible and I agree with him that chapman is strongest of the four.

I have Koz and chapman in my top tier of six least weak suspects.

[Abby Normal]

I’ve just started reading ‘In The Wake Of The Butcher’ by Badal on the Cleveland Torso Murders. It was recommended to me by Howard on the JTRForum. Would this be considered the difinitive book on that case? It’s the first one that I’ve read. I don’t mean the first book that I’ve read by the way

Hi HS
I'm not sure about that book...let me know what you find out as I don't have a book on the Cleveland torsos.

However, everything I have read about it, I'm fairly sure that Dr. F. Sweeney, who Elliot ness thought did it, is the guy.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Sam,

Long time no speak I’m sure that you’re right that Sugden would get the nod, my only criticism would be that he says that Chapman is the likeliest suspects?!

Doesnt mean that Sugden's book isn't the definitive text. It's definitely in the category of "essential reading", which few others can claim to be.

[John Wheat]

If folks were asked to nominate a definitive Ripper book, I bet most would unhesitatingly say "Sugden"

Fair point Sam although as others have stated Chapman as the leading suspect counts against it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS
I'm not sure about that book...let me know what you find out as I don't have a book on the Cleveland torsos.

However, everything I have read about it, I'm fairly sure that Dr. F. Sweeney, who Elliot ness thought did it, is the guy.

Hi Abby,

I’ve only read around 80 pages but I had a skim through before I started (some nasty photographs by the way) and he says that it’s not a ‘solved it’ book. But Sweeney is most prominent I think. Also at the beginning he mentions the prime suspect (Sweeney) was proven beyond all reasonable doubt. He also says that he’s gained new info to show where the bodies were dismembered. It’s a good read so far. It averages around £15 on eBay (around $20 to you )

[Herlock Sholmes]

Doesnt mean that Sugden's book isn't the definitive text. It's definitely in the category of "essential reading", which few others can claim to be.

No argument there Sam

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I’ve only read around 80 pages but I had a skim through before I started (some nasty photographs by the way) and he says that it’s not a ‘solved it’ book. But Sweeney is most prominent I think. Also at the beginning he mentions the prime suspect (Sweeney) was proven beyond all reasonable doubt. He also says that he’s gained new info to show where the bodies were dismembered. It’s a good read so far. It averages around £15 on eBay (around $20 to you )

Thanks hs.
I’m gonna get.

Also, responded to your zodiac post, not sure if you saw.

[Wickerman]

Fair point Sam although as others have stated Chapman as the leading suspect counts against it.

Sugden's book is required reading for the content, not necessarily for the conclusions he drew.

[Ginger]

Hi HS
I'm not sure about that book...let me know what you find out as I don't have a book on the Cleveland torsos.

However, everything I have read about it, I'm fairly sure that Dr. F. Sweeney, who Elliot ness thought did it, is the guy.

I read it a few years back, and found it well worth my time. Be aware that the crime scene pictures, once having been glimpsed, cannot be unseen.

[Abby Normal]

I read it a few years back, and found it well worth my time. Be aware that the crime scene pictures, once having been glimpsed, cannot be unseen.

thanks for the recommendation...and the warning!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I read it a few years back, and found it well worth my time. Be aware that the crime scene pictures, once having been glimpsed, cannot be unseen.

Hi Ginger,
This is an updated version by the way. When Howard Brown recommended it to me he told me specifically to get the updated one as the extra information is well worth it

You’re right about the photos though. Don’t read just before you’re about to sit down for the Sunday joint!