Ripperologist 117

[lynn cates]

dismiss

Hello Maria. Yes, that's "dismiss."

Corey? No, he may not have enough empirical experience in that area. (heh-heh) It was the Zinna (sp?) article. What a guy!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Eduardo

Hello Tom. Yes, he's the one.

Actually, I am not fond of big words--I just like them precise and, as you point out, spelled correctly.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn,
please admit it, you're much too fond of latin.
Somehow I agree with you that Corey may not have enough empirical experience in the evil area.
My dedication to my paper on deadline's gone to hell in a basket. I swear I'm going back to it, in about 15'minutes...

[The Grave Maurice]

Take the Facts by Paul Begg, they changed the title, with his consent of course, but he didn't want it changed. I think it was previously the uncensored facts. Or something along those lines.

Since this thread seems to have gone to hell in a hand basket, I might as well join in. As I understand it, Mr Begg wanted to call the first edition of his book The Facts, but his publishers asked him to include "uncensored", presumably, in their opinion, to make it more marketable. By the time the second revised and enlarged edition came out, he seems, no doubt because of his increased reputation, to have had more clout with the publishers and, thereby, got to use his original title.

On the other hand, I notice that he (or, perhaps, someone using his name) has joined our ranks, so he could answer for himself, were he so inclined.

[mariab]

The Grave Maurice wrote:
Since this thread seems to have gone to hell in a hand basket, I might as well join in. As I understand it, Mr Begg wanted to call the first edition of his book The Facts, but his publishers asked him to include "uncensored", presumably, in their opinion, to make it more marketable. By the time the second revised and enlarged edition came out, he seems, no doubt because of his increased reputation, to have had more clout with the publishers and, thereby, got to use his original title.
That's EXACTLY how I was imagining it!
Profound apologies for having effectively contributed to this thread having gone to hell in a basket, Grave Maurice.
By the by (yes! I'm a recidivist), I just had a look outside the window and the whole Berlin is covered in powder snow, looks like at least 4 inches. YESSSS! Hope to go riding with my pals next weekend – if it holds. Started early, this year. Plus, somehow I was feeling it, before seeing it. Felt kinda cold and sleepy all day, luxuriating in bed, and I invarably feel like this when the first snow hits us and covers up everything so cozy.

[corey123]

Hello Lynn, Maria,

Evil? Me?

[mariab]

Just the opposite, Corey!
(Still need to check my done conference paper before printing it, I can't believe my laziness! And the entire Europe's snowed in, which is cool. But the conference's still taking place tomorrow, even with delays...)

[lynn cates]

evil

Hello Corey. No, we thought you had little experience with evil. In other words, you are not a seasoned veteran in that area.

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Hello Lynn, Maria,

No, not yet at least Thats my major, evil! Well, maybe it might be my minor.

[Fi Saint]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to say, well, hi everyone, this is my first post, I wrote the article called Art & Anarchists: A Red Harvest? in the current issue and wondered if anyone has anything to say about any of the points raised in it, as I did hope that it might spark some discussion.. and further research. Some of it is old ground I know but it would be good to get a bit of feedback.

Cheers,
Fi

[lynn cates]

propaganda by deed

Hello Fiona. I read your article and am only too happy to discuss it.

Your notion that at least some of the WCM were results of the doctrine of "propaganda by deed" is a sound one, in my most humble opinion.

Reading Rudolph Rocker's "The London Years" I see many unmistakable parallels. Amongst others, there was a group of Arbeter Frainters who had plotted to kill Pyotr Kropotkin because his tactics were deemed too mild. Moreover, internal dissension in the group, at one point, caused one anarchist to be set upon in an alley and subsequently clubbed. (The doctor who treated him claimed his thick cap saved his life.)

I think that, ultimately, my hesitance with this theory is that:

1. Polly and Annie seem unconnected with C3-C5. My take is that they were killed by a lunatic who was subsequently incarcerated in the asylum. Knowing this would give carte blanche to whomever had a bone to pick with any lady whatsoever--provided she could be painted as a prostitute.

2. Liz and Kate's killings seem to have obvious Jewish/Anarchist implications. This lesson was not lost on Sir Charles who, in a missive of October 12, noted that the killings were obviously to implicate Jews, Socialists, or both.

3. Although the "Kelly" killing spawns difficult problems far above my puny neuronal synapsing powers, I would point out that it smells of Fenian/Clan na Gael/Land League involvement.

Still, your angle is worth pursuing.

Right now, I am searching for someone who reads Cyrillic script and who can search the voluminous correspondence which is the Okhrana files, archived at the Hoover Institution in Palo Alto California, at Stanford University.

Good luck on your further research and please, more great articles!

Cheers.
LC

[Fi Saint]

Thanks for that, Lynne. I understand that much of this is old ground, but what I hoped to bring to the party is the artist/anarchist aspect. such as the link between Harry Bates of 57 Bedford Gdns and Joules Dalou's anarchist ring in Paris.

I recall reading that you had copies of some of the files at the IISH in Amsterdam; I have reason to believe that the statement made to the Met in 1888 by 'Charles de la Ree Bott' (one line of which is quoted by Trevor Mariott in his book) was in fact made by Max Nettlau, and that Nettlau himself may have left clues to the murders in the archives. Again, this is something that requires the expertise of translators of ancient languages.

Best,
Fi

[Fi Saint]

Sorry, Lynn.

[lynn cates]

files

Hello Fiona. The files are rather bland, albeit expensive. I forwarded them to Chris Scott last summer to see if anything were of value. They are largely signatures of the Socialist League members (including Woolf Wess).

Are you serious about Nettlau? If he has an angle on this case, I feel confident that I can obtain those materials.

Which ancient language are we discussing here? I can do mediaeval Latin and a bit of Greek. Amongst all of us at Casebook, we can possibly find translators.

Cheers.
LC

[Fi Saint]

Hi Lynn,

I would love to look at the records you have. For what it's worth, this is my theory about Nettlau...

On November 3rd 1888, a statement was made to the Metropolitan police in London by a man who claimed to have information about the “Whitechapel outrages” {Hatfield House, transcript no. 3M/E 176}. The man’s name was recorded by the policeman who took his statement as Charles de la Rée Bott. De la Rée Bott stated that the murders "may have been committed by perhaps twenty persons with connivance". {This and other excepts of the statement were made public for the first time in Trevor Marriott’s 2007 book Jack the Ripper, A Twenty-First Century Investigation}

The word ‘connivance’ has several shades of meaning, but as a legal term, it has a very specific one: to give tacit consent to wrong-doing by another. De la Rée Bott added that the murders “are stopped for the present unless they occur again for mere bravado". Less than a week later, of course, the murder took place of Mary Kelly, a crime of such audacity that it is I guess possible to see it as an act of bravado.

According to the transcript, Sir Charles Warren apparently considered de la Rée Bott to be “an educated man”, who although he appeared “to have some eccentric ideas”, was “probably not a lunatic”. Nevertheless, the police seem to have ignored his statement, which had been made with the motive of obtaining an audience with Crown or Government in order to put forward “a plan”. De la Rée Bott explained that the plan was not intended for the ears of the police, because it was “mathematical, archaeological, classical and scientific and requires a man of education to understand”.

In the middle of his statement, Charles de la Rée Bott made a most curious digressesion, complaining that he had been unable to publish his Celtic studies. He said: “the Blasphemy Laws … have prevented me from publishing my book “Celtic” which took me five years to write – five years of wasted labour”.

If the Chief Commissioner was correct in his assumption that de la Rée Bott was in full possession of his intellectual faculties at the time he made the statement, then there has to be a very good reason he mentioned his Celtic studies in the middle of his statement, which otherwise, in this context, makes no sense at all.

As I am sure you are aware, Max Nettlau was in London in 1885 finishing his PhD and while there became a member of William Morris’ Socialist League. He began to collect papers and documents relating to the anarchist movement and amongst the entire collection now housed in the IISH in Amsterdam - all relating to anarchist matters - are thirteen files containing Nettlau’s studies of Celtic grammar.

As the online introduction to the archives states: “Where his Celtic studies are concerned the volumes of notes may still contain some interesting information according to Nettlau in 1919. It continues: “Also still of interest to the expert he thought the excepts and copies in folio made in London and Oxford in 1885 – 6, which could not be identified, but if present can only be mixed in with his notes relating to Welsh and Irish text (inv. No 1433 – 1438).”

Is this 'interesting information' about the murders. Did Nettlau have the foresight to bury what would have undoubtedly been at the time incendiary information where it was absolutely guaranteed to remain undisturbed (unless anyone knew where to look): among his PhD dissertations relating to the grammatical obscurities of the Cymric language? And did he have the presence of mind to leave the key to this fact – the Celtic reference - in his statement to the police, knowing the request of a young student for an audience with the heads of state would never be taken seriously – but that it would have to be recorded and therefore preserved for posterity?

Writing in 1919, Nettlau himself was doubtful the ‘interesting information’ would even still “be there”. Nevertheless this is obviously a stone which ought not to be left unturned.

Could his “twenty” be a thinly veiled reference to les Vingt? ('les XX')

Fi