Casebook Examiner No. 2 (June 2010)

[Monty]

Hutt joined the City Force January 1879 (23rd January to be precise, and fully accepted on 31st January).

His records show that his first number was 623, however as we know it was altered to 968. These are the only two numbers George Hutt had throughout his service with the City Force.

Stewart Evans showed that Harveys Collar number was the same in 1886 as it was in 1888. Seeing as Harvey and Hutt were in the same force its logical to assume they altered their numbers at the same time, ergo sometime prior to 1886.

The news clipping Lynn have provided is dated the summer of 1879, when Hutt was in possession of Collar No 623.

Monty


PS Apologies Rob, just saw your post.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Rob and Monty. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you for the reply, Tom.

I'm aware that other writers have said that Le Grand and Batchelor were hired in October, but I don't believe there's a source for this. It's assumed to have been the case because that's when they first publicly surfaced.

Likewise there is no source for a September hiring.

I could not tell you the exact date they were hired, but since they first showed up on the scene Oct. 2nd or even earlier, and were subsequently described by the police as being jointly employed by the WVC and the press (in this case Evening News), I figured it more likely that they were employed in September as opposed to the first of October. But anything is possible.

I would have to go back and read my 2006 Ripper Notes article to completely refresh my memory on why I concluded they were hired in September, but I think that's pretty much it.

Morning Advertiser Oct 3 -

Last night (or Tuesday Oct 2) a special meeting of the Vigilance Committee, of which Mr. Lusk is chairman, took place at the committee-rooms, 74, Mile-end-road, to discuss the refusal of the Home Secretary to issue offers of a reward...

Then follows discussion of the reward. Continuing further on in the article -

An intimation at this stage reached the meeting that some private detectives wished to be engaged in the case on behalf of the Vigilance Committee, but Mr. Reeves and Mr. Aarons announced that they had already three detectives at work, and a band of twenty young gentlemen had gathered for the purpose of patrolling one section of the haunted district, with the view of assisting the police in bringing the offender to justice. The services of these gentlemen were therefore declined.

If the detectives had been on hire since September, that would have been known, I would think, and no announcement necessary. As far as I can tell, the timeline was thus: The WVC was formed on Monday, Sept 10 and began patrolling with volunteers. The murder of Liz Stride early morning Sept 30 was a precipitating event such that detectives were hired that Sunday evening, or Monday the 1st or as late as Tuesday morning.

In other words, I don't see how we can place detective Le Grand in Berner Street at the time of the Stride murder if he wasn't yet hired by the committee and the Evening News.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Excellent work, No. 2.

E.S. Blofeld

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy,

You more or less made my point with the excerpt you posted. If on Oct. 2nd, the services of PI's were refused because they already had three under employ (the third one remains a mystery, by the way) then it stands to reason these men were in fact hired in September and were on patrol the night of the double event.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Interesting.

Have you got any evidence that Le Grand and Batchelor were two of the three private detectives retained by the WVC?

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

As far as I can tell, the timeline was thus: The WVC was formed on Monday, Sept 10 and began patrolling with volunteers. The murder of Liz Stride early morning Sept 30 was a precipitating event such that detectives were hired that Sunday evening, or Monday the 1st or as late as Tuesday morning.

That's an extremely tight timeline you've produced. Considering that the WVC were making the rounds and hiring volunteers throughout September, it's logical that they would have hired the men intended to take charge of these volunteers at the same time, possibly first. The fact that we know Le Grand was in the employ of the WVC by Oct. 2nd further suggests the likelihood the was in their employ and on patrol two days prior, unless you're suggesting they rushed out and plucked him off the street on Oct 1st. If you have decided to take a view other than the logical one suggested by the sequence of recorded events, I'd be very interested in knowing your motive for doing so.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Have you got any evidence that Le Grand and Batchelor were two of the three private detectives retained by the WVC?

Yes, as does anyone who owns a copy of 'Ultimate'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

There is no solid evidence in the "Ultimate".

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Yeah there is. They say that the private detectives who interviewed Packer were 'jointly employed' by the WVC and the press.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

But Swanson didn't name them specifically.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Don't be obtuse, Simon. Only one pair of private detectives found and interviewed Packer and these are named by PS White, the Evening News, and everyone else as Le Grand and Batchelor. I also have an 1891 letter referring to Le Grand's vigilance work, so don't go about trying to create doubt where none exists. My bases are well covered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

That's an extremely tight timeline you've produced. Considering that the WVC were making the rounds and hiring volunteers throughout September, it's logical that they would have hired the men intended to take charge of these volunteers at the same time, possibly first. The fact that we know Le Grand was in the employ of the WVC by Oct. 2nd further suggests the likelihood the was in their employ and on patrol two days prior, unless you're suggesting they rushed out and plucked him off the street on Oct 1st. If you have decided to take a view other than the logical one suggested by the sequence of recorded events, I'd be very interested in knowing your motive for doing so.

Your reply proves my point, Tom. Because if Le Grand and Batchelor took charge of the volunteers in September, then bringing up the subject of hiring detectives at the Oct 2 meeting would not be something new, requiring an announcement.

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy. That's not how I read it. It's merely saying that some PI's wish to be employed and they said no because they feel the three they have is more than enough.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

With one eye on the trying to see the broader picture, I believe one must take into consideration the following, although from 1889, it may give a few indications.

Pall Mall Gazette, 4th November 1889

Philadelphia journalist, Mr. R. Harding Davis, has been publishing in a syndicate of American papers, an account of a night he spent upon the scene of the Whitechapel murders, towards the end of August, in the company of Police Inspector Moore, in the course of which some interesting statements occur.

"WHITECHAPEL OVERRUN WITH SPIES"

"We walked on in silence for half a block, and then I suggested that he was using amateur as well as professional detectives in his search for the murderer. "About sixty," he replied laconically. The inspector was non communicative, but I could see and hear for myself, and a dozen times during our tour women in rags, lodging-house keepers, proprietors of public-houses, and idle young men, dressed like all the other idle young men of the district, but with a straight bearing that told of discipline, and with the regulation shoe with which Scotland yard marks its men, whispered a half sentence as we passed, to which sometimes the inspector replied or to which he sometimes appeared utterly unconscious. From what he said later I learned that all Whitechapel is peopled with these spies. Sometimes they are only "plain clothes" men, but besides these he has half a hundred and at times 200 unattached detectives, who pursue their respectable or otherwise callings while they keep an alert eye and ear for the faintest clue that may lead to the discovery of the invisible murderer."

So one can wonder exactly how many people were "unattached detectives", as yet unknown and unnamed, in September/October 1888 onwards.
In considering the "two of the three" to be considered as such, it must reasonably be considered that they were not the only three knocking around, on the basis of possibility and probability.

best wishes

Phil