Casebook Examiner No. 2 (June 2010)

[lynn cates]

Kelly

Hello Maria and Debra. No, I am not kidding about the mystery--nor about Debra.

Debra, my input? As if I had any. If not for that blasted John Kelly entry just above it, I am sure it would have gone unnoticed by everyone. (With all the trouble it's caused, that might have been a good thing!)

Take care both.
LC

[mariab]

Mr Doughty (Doherty?)

Hello Debra and Lynn,
Right on, I immediately said "Catherine Eddowes" when I saw a "Catherine Kelly" referred along with a “John Kelly“ (in my post of this morning, #520), even without a clue about other Victorian crimes! So, if you don't mind my asking (out of sheer curiosity), who was that poor murdered Mr Doughty (Doherty), and what did Rob Clack find about him? I imagine him as some old local yokel (perhaps affluent) who was killed in his dwellings (Rashkolnikov-wise, like in good old Dostoievsky's Crime and Punishment), and the Metro Police suspected Eddowes' John Kelly?! (But I'm probably "projecting" here!) At any rate, don't feel any obligations to fill me in. On the other side, I solemny promise I'm not working on any book on JTR right now,so there's very little chance that I get hold of your scoop in any self-serving fashion!!
And re. to the John and Catherine Kelly “entries“, I assume that all of you are simply referring to entries mentioned in the Clutterbuck dissertation, and that none of you (besides Mr. Marriot) has ever PHYSICALLY had contact with the real ledges? Just to keep things clear...
(And by the way, I've already had physical contact with ledges, in a relatively brutal way, 4 or 5 years ago, when I was attempting to skate “street“!!!)

And a last question: I've seen in a thread that Fisherman has allegedly produced 2 books. Does this refer to his 2 dissertations posted on casebook, or are we talking 2 published books?
(It's not easy, but it's busy being a newbie...)
Thank you all so much and

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Maria. There was a detective Doughty who was on a case with Abberline in about 1873. Debra's research shows him to be alive beyond the WCM. There was also a Henry Doughty jailed in early 1888 for attending a forbidden Irish meeting. He, too, seems to be alive after the WCM.

Doherty? Well Peter Doherty was murdered in about 1881 and his assassins were convicted in 1883 or 1884. (I have the news clippings--if you are interested.)

I have a jpg of the ledger page (the one mentioned by Butterworth). If you'd like to have a go at it, just PM me with your email address and I can send it along.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Doherty, the Fenians, and Kelly?

Hello Lynn,
I know about the Butterworth book, I've even perused parts of it online, but I don't think I feel like reading it in its entirety. (Talking about a hornest net of international spies following around the Fenians and anarchists, socialists and future communists. I already feel a buzz in my head!)
I've sent you a PM, and thank you so much for willing to forward me the jpg from the ledges. Is it the one referring to the murder of Peter Doherty? I can't imagine that it refers to the Kellys too, though! (Despite the well-documented inclination of the Metro Police to link the Ripper murders to the Fenian movement!)
I wonder if the assassinated Peter Doherty is an antecendant of Kate Moss' ex? The heroin-inclined, puke-o-filiac “musician“?

[mariab]

By the by, where is the proud author of the Le Grand piece in Examiner 2? We haven't heard from Tom Wescott for a while. (Probably doesn't have internet access anymore today anyway. Na, do I make a good spy?Cyberspy, or good enough for the RAND corporation?!)
Hey Tom, I hope you aren't in any way offended by my having compared you to Patricia Cornwell, or by my demanding more footnotes in your articles? I was mainly teasing – for the former, not for the latter. Something tells me that if you had been compared to Kay Scarpetta instead of Patricia Cornwell, you would feel endlessly flattered. At least I would've. As for being compared to Pete Marino...
Anyway, no hard feelings, I hope?

[Debra A]

Is it the one referring to the murder of Peter Doherty? I can't imagine that it refers to the Kellys too, though! (Despite the well-documented inclination of the Metro Police to link the Ripper murders to the Fenian movement!)

Maria, it refers to the murder of Mr. Doughty, re statement of Catherine Kelly.

I personally think it possible the entry is related to the Parnell Inquiry and the murder of Peter Doherty, and nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders or Catherine Eddowes.
But this thread is going way off topic now.

[mariab]

Hello Debra,
thanks for precising this. Lynn Cates sent me some very interested documents, but I haven't yet had the chance to peruse them, since I've been working all night (with my boss in Chicago), and actually I'm still working with him (at 4.00 a.m. Chicago time!!). But I hope to be able to look at what Lynn sent me tonight. “Kelly“ is a fairly commun Irish name. Has anyone had the time to research “Catherine Kelly(s)“?
Yes, this thread is totally off-topic, perhaps we should continue in the thread “The secret Special Branch ledgers“ (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4688&page=2)?
I'm going out for a couple of hours now, to run several errands.
Thank you for all the information and

[The Grave Maurice]

Thank you for all the information and

...all the fish?

[mariab]

Fish?

[The Grave Maurice]

Your post #532 seemed to end in mid-thought. So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish is the fourth book in the Hitchhiker's Guide series (someone on these boards has been using it as a signature line lately) and it seemed like a possible way to end the sentence.

[mariab]

Oh, OK! A Hitchhiker's Guide quote! I wasn't thinking. (25 hours on my feet and counting.) I need to go catch some shut eye soon.

[mariab]

Hello Lynn and Debra,
I'm attaching an electronically “cleaned up“ file of the reference to the Kellys in the secret Special Branch ledgers. I'm very sorry to say that there clearly doesn't seem to be any “g“ for “Doughty“ (Henry Doughty?) in there. What my eyes read is either “Mc Dovertly“ or, possibly, “Mc Doverthy“. Could the latter be mis-spelled, and meant to mean “Doherty“? It's a long shot, but then again, who knows? Also I very much doubt that it says “Mr“ before the unidentified name in question. “Mr Jenkinson“ and “Mr Balfour“ are inscribed very differently from the unidentified name in question, and all “Mr“s before Jenkinson and Balfour look identical to one another, every single time they are inscribed. In addition to this, there are NO other cases of a “Mr“ in front of the names of “regular people“ in this list, besides the likes of Jenkinson and Balfour. Still, I think it would be definitely of benefit to find out if these Kellys referred here had anything to do with Kelly/Eddowes.

[Zodiac]

Don't Panic!!!

Hello Lynn and Debra,
I'm attaching an electronically “cleaned up“ file of the reference to the Kellys in the secret Special Branch ledgers. I'm very sorry to say that there clearly doesn't seem to be any “g“ for “Doughty“ (Henry Doughty?) in there. What my eyes read is either “Mc Dovertly“ or, possibly, “Mc Doverthy“. Could the latter be mis-spelled, and meant to mean “Doherty“? It's a long shot, but then again, who knows? Also I very much doubt that it says “Mr“ before the unidentified name in question. “Mr Jenkinson“ and “Mr Balfour“ are inscribed very differently from the unidentified name in question, and all “Mr“s before Jenkinson and Balfour look identical to one another, every single time they are inscribed. In addition to this, there are NO other cases of a “Mr“ in front of the names of “regular people“ in this list, besides the likes of Jenkinson and Balfour. Still, I think it would be definitely of benefit to find out if these Kellys referred here had anything to do with Kelly/Eddowes.

Hi Maria,

How are you? Hope that you're well. How's the surf board holding up to the tender mercies of the airport baggage handlers? Whats all this, Pete Doherty was Jack the Ripper??? Now that really would be the very definition of a "Disorganized Serial Killer!" No wait, what was that about Kelly??? Not the infamous Ned Kelly? My God, so there really was an Antipodean angle to the ripper murders after all!!!

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[mariab]

errata

I'd like to apologize for 2 very STUPID newbie mistakes in my previous posts:
1) Being a freestyle snowboarder and often mentally/technically preoccupied with sliding over obstacles, I kept typing “ledges“ when referring to the Special Brand ledgers! Is that a Freudian slip or what? Even if I already had a hunch, now I even better know where my mind belongs!
2) There are 2 books out there referring to Fenianism by a certain Fishman, and I kept thinking that this was our Swede friend , Fisherman!

To Zodiac:
Hi Zodiac, I'm fine, thank you so very much, and I hope you're fine too. My surfboard's fine as well, but a bottle of South African red wine exploded inside a brand new, cute blue trolley case given to me by Quiksilver. Even after a week and some intense cleaning, the alcoholic stench is still there – immediately when one enters my living room, so that one is forwarned! Apart from this, there were no shark sightings at Jeffrey's Bay, South Africa, even if a whale with her baby visited the line up.(Immediately made me feel thinner! No, actually I was nervous as hell, and avoided going for tons of waves I wanted to try at the outside.)
I just LOVE your joke about Pete Doherty (of Kate Moss fame) being a suspect for the Ripper! Imagine how disorganized that would make him! Aaron Koz is Martha Stewart in comparison! As for Kelly, I meant Kelly Slater, of course! The surfer's angle to Ripperology!
No, seriously, what this is about is that Ripperologists have been examining certain pages (available in different books, some published and some not, but available online) from the Special Brand ledgers, and there is mention of a John and Catherine Kelly having being questioned by Jenkinson (who was the head of the Special Branch at the time, until about 1887) pertaining to the murder of someone with a yet unidentified, undeciferable name – either Doherty, or Doverty, or whatnot. It's connected to the Irish cause, and very possibly not at all to Whitechapel.
As for Ned Kelly, I had no idea that he was in England at the time – like Feigenbaum! Damn, maybe we just cracked the case! “Case closed from Down Under“, as Patricia Cornwell's editor would say...

[Zodiac]

To Zodiac:
Hi Zodiac, I'm fine, thank you so very much, and I hope you're fine too. My surfboard's fine as well, but a bottle of South African red wine exploded inside a brand new, cute blue trolley case given to me by Quiksilver. Even after a week and some intense cleaning, the alcoholic stench is still there – immediately when one enters my living room, so that one is forwarned! Apart from this, there were no shark sightings at Jeffrey's Bay, South Africa, even if a whale with her baby visited the line up.(Immediately made me feel thinner! No, actually I was nervous as hell, and avoided going for tons of waves I wanted to try at the outside.)
I just LOVE your joke about Pete Doherty (of Kate Moss fame) being a suspect for the Ripper! Imagine how disorganized that would make him! Aaron Koz is Martha Stewart in comparison! As for Kelly, I meant Kelly Slater, of course! The surfer's angle to Ripperology!
No, seriously, what this is about is that Ripperologists have been examining certain pages (available in different books, some published and some not, but available online) from the Special Brand ledgers, and there is mention of a John and Catherine Kelly having being questioned by Jenkinson (who was the head of the Special Branch at the time, until about 1887) pertaining to the murder of someone with a yet unidentified, undeciferable name – either Doherty, or Doverty, or whatnot. It's connected to the Irish cause, and very possibly not at all to Whitechapel.
As for Ned Kelly, I had no idea that he was in England at the time – like Feigenbaum! Damn, maybe we just cracked the case! “Case closed from Down Under“, as Patricia Cornwell's editor would say...

Hi Maria,

Glad to hear that you are well. I'm not doing too badly thanks, apart from the news about Sutcliffe. I know he will never get out and he knows he will never get out, but it's all about mind-games with him, it gives him the power to still hurt us, and he revels in that. Anyway f*ck him!!! Glad that you enjoyed the Pete Doherty thing! I wonder if the illustrious Ms Cornwall is planning a new Magnum Opus, which will go into great, and expensive, detail proving, conclusively, that "Ned Kelly" was indeed "Jack the Ripper. After all, she will argue, who else but Kelly could wander, at will, through the streets of Whitechapel without being recognised or identified? Only Kelly, hidden beneath his dustbin-like metal armour could possibly get away with such audacious crimes without being recognised!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg6cOTy5ae4&feature=fvw

Best wishes,

Zodiac.