Casebook Examiner No. 2 (June 2010)

[mariab]

newspaper reports and suspects

Roy wrote:
Your reply proves my point, Tom. Because if Le Grand and Batchelor took charge of the volunteers in September, then bringing up the subject of hiring detectives at the Oct 2 meeting would not be something new, requiring an announcement.
I have NO idea whatsoever about the accuracy of newspaper reports in 1880s/1990s London, but I can tell of Neapolitan newspapers of the 1820s/1830s and of the exasperating effects of doing research with them (trying to corroborate a chronology of events, political or art-related). Neapolitan newspapers of the early 19th century announce events as late as 5 days to a week to 10 days after the event's occurence, WITHOUT giving the exact date of the event. So it would have been perfectly normal for, say, Il corriere delle 2 Sicilie (which was a major European newspaper in the early to mid 19th century, as Naples was a very important European cultural center at the time), if in a similar hypothetical situation, to mention the hiring of detectives for the VC 10 days after it happened and without mentioning the date of the exact event occurence. Parisian newspapers of the early to mid 19th century are a bit more quick, but still they tend to announce events 2 to 3 days after their occurence, often without giving the exact dates of the event. I have no clue if things started to get more accurate in the 1880s/1890s, but I can ask (next time I bump into any “distinguished colleague“ specialized in the Fin de siècle).
Besides this I have a very stupid question, newby-wise: Would it be not possible for Le Grand, were he to be considered as a suspect for the Ripper, to have applied at the WVC immediately AFTER the “double event“ instead of before? Same motivation, slightly different MO.
Can I also ask if the “Swanson connection“ mentioned by posters on this thread refers to the Swanson Marginalia, and in which manner there does it show doubt about Le Grand/Batchelor? (If I got this right while 'blindly' reading the posts here.) I've looked around, but the Swanson Marginalia are not available on casebook, and I don't have the Evans/Skinner book to use for reference.
I promise to soon plundge into Examiner 1 and 2, which I've just received, so as to refrain from asking such uninformed questions. (I had to take a raincheck due to a weekend away surfing and now due to a paper on deadline, but eventuallly I'll get to read these babies.)
And a last question re. City P.C George Hutt, can anyone name the Evening News issue where he complained about ramping antisemitism in the East End, as Natalie Severn wrote? Is it possible to access London 1889 newspapers somewhere online?
With many thanks and with a thousand apologies for being so ignorant, and for coming forward with too many questions,
Maria
Natalie Severn wrote:
I also remember he was horrified by the anti semitism that was becoming apparent in the East End and actually took the step of writing to the Evening paper about what he thought to be an abhorrent development---he took steps to only give his initials and an inaccurate address since he wasnt really supposed to write to the papers as a policeman!

[Phil Carter]

Hello Roy,

I read this the same way, and agree with you.

Hello Tom,

In reference to your specific playing field, not my broader one (which I did state), respectfully, I do not believe that you have shown the sources do indeed prove it beyond doubt. Swanson did not name the two. Therefore one cannot simply assume these were the people he meant. It is not fact. Therefore the Swanson connection shows doubt.

I can see where you are coming from, no problem. Part of Ripperology is doing exactly what you are doing, which is to be applauded, however, irrefutable facts, conclusions, statements and especially evidence, are few and far between. By sheer definition, "indicators" can lead towards a firmer conclusion, but not always a factually tight conclusion.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Phil,

You're a little off the playing field. I've never suggested Le Grand and co. were the only private detectives or wannabe PI's wandering around. All of the patrolmen of the WVC and other vigilance committees (whom Moore probably had in mind when he made that statement) would fit into that category. What Roy asked was when Le Grand was hired by the WVC, and I say September by all indicators. Simon asked how we can be sure Le Grand and Batchelor were the PI's hired by the WVC and I pointed out that the sources prove it beyond any doubt.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

With one eye on the trying to see the broader picture, I believe one must take into consideration the following, although from 1889, it may give a few indications.

Pall Mall Gazette, 4th November 1889

Philadelphia journalist, Mr. R. Harding Davis, has been publishing in a syndicate of American papers, an account of a night he spent upon the scene of the Whitechapel murders, towards the end of August, in the company of Police Inspector Moore, in the course of which some interesting statements occur.

"WHITECHAPEL OVERRUN WITH SPIES"

"We walked on in silence for half a block, and then I suggested that he was using amateur as well as professional detectives in his search for the murderer. "About sixty," he replied laconically. The inspector was non communicative, but I could see and hear for myself, and a dozen times during our tour women in rags, lodging-house keepers, proprietors of public-houses, and idle young men, dressed like all the other idle young men of the district, but with a straight bearing that told of discipline, and with the regulation shoe with which Scotland yard marks its men, whispered a half sentence as we passed, to which sometimes the inspector replied or to which he sometimes appeared utterly unconscious. From what he said later I learned that all Whitechapel is peopled with these spies. Sometimes they are only "plain clothes" men, but besides these he has half a hundred and at times 200 unattached detectives, who pursue their respectable or otherwise callings while they keep an alert eye and ear for the faintest clue that may lead to the discovery of the invisible murderer."

So one can wonder exactly how many people were "unattached detectives", as yet unknown and unnamed, in September/October 1888 onwards.
In considering the "two of the three" to be considered as such, it must reasonably be considered that they were not the only three knocking around, on the basis of possibility and probability.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy. That's not how I read it. It's merely saying that some PI's wish to be employed and they said no because they feel the three they have is more than enough.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

That's an extremely tight timeline you've produced. Considering that the WVC were making the rounds and hiring volunteers throughout September, it's logical that they would have hired the men intended to take charge of these volunteers at the same time, possibly first. The fact that we know Le Grand was in the employ of the WVC by Oct. 2nd further suggests the likelihood the was in their employ and on patrol two days prior, unless you're suggesting they rushed out and plucked him off the street on Oct 1st. If you have decided to take a view other than the logical one suggested by the sequence of recorded events, I'd be very interested in knowing your motive for doing so.

Your reply proves my point, Tom. Because if Le Grand and Batchelor took charge of the volunteers in September, then bringing up the subject of hiring detectives at the Oct 2 meeting would not be something new, requiring an announcement.

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

Don't be obtuse, Simon. Only one pair of private detectives found and interviewed Packer and these are named by PS White, the Evening News, and everyone else as Le Grand and Batchelor. I also have an 1891 letter referring to Le Grand's vigilance work, so don't go about trying to create doubt where none exists. My bases are well covered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

But Swanson didn't name them specifically.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Yeah there is. They say that the private detectives who interviewed Packer were 'jointly employed' by the WVC and the press.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

There is no solid evidence in the "Ultimate".

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Have you got any evidence that Le Grand and Batchelor were two of the three private detectives retained by the WVC?

Yes, as does anyone who owns a copy of 'Ultimate'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

As far as I can tell, the timeline was thus: The WVC was formed on Monday, Sept 10 and began patrolling with volunteers. The murder of Liz Stride early morning Sept 30 was a precipitating event such that detectives were hired that Sunday evening, or Monday the 1st or as late as Tuesday morning.

That's an extremely tight timeline you've produced. Considering that the WVC were making the rounds and hiring volunteers throughout September, it's logical that they would have hired the men intended to take charge of these volunteers at the same time, possibly first. The fact that we know Le Grand was in the employ of the WVC by Oct. 2nd further suggests the likelihood the was in their employ and on patrol two days prior, unless you're suggesting they rushed out and plucked him off the street on Oct 1st. If you have decided to take a view other than the logical one suggested by the sequence of recorded events, I'd be very interested in knowing your motive for doing so.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Interesting.

Have you got any evidence that Le Grand and Batchelor were two of the three private detectives retained by the WVC?

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy,

You more or less made my point with the excerpt you posted. If on Oct. 2nd, the services of PI's were refused because they already had three under employ (the third one remains a mystery, by the way) then it stands to reason these men were in fact hired in September and were on patrol the night of the double event.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Excellent work, No. 2.

E.S. Blofeld