Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? by Drew Gray and Andrew Wise

[MrBarnett]

For those of you who don’t get across to JTRF, here’s the point I’m making about the census entries.

At the top is Hardiman’s occupation in 1881 and the authors claim that the word ‘knacker’ proves that he was a horse slaughterer. It seems to be the only evidence they have to support the claim.

The second is the occupation of a 67-year-old lady from Clerkenwell.

So either there were little old ladies killing and butchering horses in Victorian London or the authors have got it wrong.

[John G]

One of the arguments made in the book, in favour of the suspect Hardiman, is that some of the Rainham Torso body parts were found in the canal at Camden, apparently close by to the Metropolitan Cattle Market, opposite Harrison, Barber Slaughterhouse in Brandon Street.

Okay, the parts referred to were found in Regent's Canal, near St Pancras Lock, which is 1.5 miles from Brandon Street, so not that close. Moreover, the canal was 9 miles long, and we have no idea how far the body parts may have floated.

This seems a bit tenuous to me. Moreover, is it seriously being suggested that he would dismember a victim at his place of work? If not, what exactly is the connection supposed to be?

[Joshua Rogan]

In 1891, Frederick S. Hempleman can be found living in Southend-On-Sea (Prittlewell) and is described as a 'chemical manufacturer.' Maybe Bill Bury delivered the much needed manure, along with Joe Barnett's gutted fish entrails from Billingsgate.

And when Joe lost his job, he was forced to find an alternative source of entrails...?

[rjpalmer]

On period maps Hempleman's is shown as a "fish manure factory". Elsewhere it's described as a "blood and fish manure factory" and "artificial manure manufacturers"

In 1891, Frederick S. Hempleman can be found living in Southend-On-Sea (Prittlewell) and is described as a 'chemical manufacturer.' Maybe Bill Bury delivered the much needed manure, along with Joe Barnett's gutted fish entrails from Billingsgate.

[MrBarnett]

Was there no HB presence in Greenwich at all, at the time, or just no slaughter yard? I've found a reference to them a few years later (1908) described as "Harrison Barber of Blackwall Lane East Greenwich" and it concerns the inquest into the death of an employee.

I think the yard in question was in the hands of a rival company in October, 1886. Perhaps Drew has discovered that HB took it over within the next six months?

This aspect of their claim is something I am trying to get to the bottom of.

[MrBarnett]

Yes, Joshua it could be either, I suppose, but it certainly looks wrong.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks, RJ, that’s what I suspect. And I think they have located TW in the Royal Victoria dock because that’s where Hughes lived?

How pleased the authors must have been to discover a ‘Rainham’ find opposite the riverbank of the Greenwich Peninsular where they claim there was an HB slaughter yard (I don’t think there was).

Was there no HB presence in Greenwich at all, at the time, or just no slaughter yard? I've found a reference to them a few years later (1908) described as "Harrison Barber of Blackwall Lane East Greenwich" and it concerns the inquest into the death of an employee.

[John G]

Okay, this is from Drew Gray's book:

"On 5 June a human thigh, similarly wrapped to the Rainham Torso, washed up by Temple Pier by the new Victoria Embankment Embankment and Waterloo Bridge." (Gray, Wise, 2019)

This bit is indeed correct: Waterloo Bridge is by the Victoria Embankment close to Temple Pier. It is no where near the Greenwich Peninsula, which is 7.5 miles away.

[Joshua Rogan]

It appears that you might have already smoked it out. Hempleman's Jetty in Rainhill somehow became Templeman's Wharf (?) The name similarity is a little striking. One report rather ingloriously calls F.S. Hempleman's plant a 'manure factory,' though it evidently made chemical fertilizers.

On period maps Hempleman's is shown as a "fish manure factory". Elsewhere it's described as a "blood and fish manure factory" and "artificial manure manufacturers"

There was a chemical manure works at the entrance to Victoria Docks, for what it's worth.

I think John G's suggestion is reasonable that Templeman's Wharf, Victoria Docks could be a confusion with Temple Pier, Victoria Embankment, rather than the factory, but either are plausible. Or even a muddle of elements from both.

[John G]

Temple Pier was a place where boats could moor on the Thames opposite the Temple. And a pierman’s a bloke what looks after pier?

I could almost believe your very imaginative suggestion if it wasn’t for the fact that we are looking for a wharf opposite the Greenwich Peninsular, where the authors claim an HB knackers yard sat on the riverside (I don’t think one did).

Ah, good point! As far as I can ascertain the only wharf opposite the Greenwich Peninsula is Trinity Buoy Wharf, established in 1803 by Trinity House as its Thames-side workshop.

[Debra A]

Gary, I've had a chance to have a look through the papers this morning and I didn't see 'Templeman's wharf' come up in any article related to the Rainham case. I also checked for Victoria Docks and the only mention in connection with the case I could find was at the inquest reported in the Illustrated Police News 21 May 1887, Hughes was described as a licenced lighterman of 0 (other number not legible) Pickford-terrace, Victoria Docks.

[MrBarnett]

It appears that you might have already smoked it out. Hempleman's Jetty in Rainhill somehow became Templeman's Wharf (?) The name similarity is a little striking. One report rather ingloriously calls F.S. Hempleman's plant a 'manure factory,' though it evidently made chemical fertilizers.

Thanks, RJ, that’s what I suspect. And I think they have located TW in the Royal Victoria dock because that’s where Hughes lived?

How pleased the authors must have been to discover a ‘Rainham’ find opposite the riverbank of the Greenwich Peninsular where they claim there was an HB slaughter yard (I don’t think there was).

[rjpalmer]

I’d really like to get to the bottom of the ‘Templeman’s’ Wharf thing.

It appears that you might have already smoked it out. Hempleman's Jetty in Rainhill somehow became Templeman's Wharf (?) The name similarity is a little striking. One report rather ingloriously calls F.S. Hempleman's plant a 'manure factory,' though it evidently made chemical fertilizers.

[MrBarnett]

The issues that we have been raising have for the most part been matters of fact rather than interpretation. I’m surprised people might think otherwise.

The one significant interpretation has been in connection with Hardiman’s occupation on a census. The authors look at the way it is presented and conclude from it that Hardiman was a horse slaughterer and therefore must have worked for Harrison, Barber. But there are examples of old ladies whose occupations are presented in the same way. Is it likely that they too were horse slaughterers?

I’d really like to get to the bottom of the ‘Templeman’s’ Wharf thing. That might turn out to be the biggest gaffe of all.

[Debra A]

The problem seems to be that some think if you don't agree with the version of events in [for example] Grays' book that you must agree with the version of events in [for example] Christer's theory, but it doesn't work like that. I really wish people would treat us like individuals with the ability to assess source information for ourselves. I am tired of being patronised all the time.