Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? by Drew Gray and Andrew Wise

[John G]

Tbh, all I'm looking for is a dispassionate, fact-based report of the Torso murders. I've heard Trow's book has numerous errors.

I enjoyed Trow's book, and to be fair, it's mainly accurate, and unlike the book under discussion, it avoids being too speculative. However, this case is extremely complex and an absolute minefield for the unwary particularly, as Debra points out, as there are a number of errors in the press reports. In fact, I've even been known to make the odd mistake myself!

[John G]

I could probably manage that much.

Sounds like a great idea Debra!

[John G]

exactly John
and with Chapman-would he really kill and mutilate a victim in his Mums back yard? IMHO no of course not.

It's absolutely crazy, isn't it Abby? They also seem to be suggesting a second double event-Tabram and Whitehall-on the flimsiest evidence-and unless I've misunderstood, the possibility that the Whitehall victim could have been murdered and dismembered in the dark catacombs of the police building foundations during some quiet period!

" Given the difficulty and dangers involved in transporting a corpse or body parts to the site, is it not far more likely that the victim was actually killed or dismembered there on some quiet occasion when the site was shut." (Gray and Wise, 2019)

[John G]

John,
The Lambeth Road find and St George's Circus find are one and the same - the blind school was located on Lambeth Road but in the angle with London Road, they meet at the Circus, where an entrance to the school was located.

Thanks Joshua. I though that there must be some connection!

[Harry D]

I could probably manage that much.

[Cogidubnus]

I could probably manage that much.

I think there's a number of us could probably manage to find bookshelf space for a book like that...

[Abby Normal]

I could probably manage that much.

yes! yes and YES!!

[Debra A]

Tbh, all I'm looking for is a dispassionate, fact-based report of the Torso murders. I've heard Trow's book has numerous errors.

I could probably manage that much.

[Abby Normal]

One of the arguments made in the book, in favour of the suspect Hardiman, is that some of the Rainham Torso body parts were found in the canal at Camden, apparently close by to the Metropolitan Cattle Market, opposite Harrison, Barber Slaughterhouse in Brandon Street.

Okay, the parts referred to were found in Regent's Canal, near St Pancras Lock, which is 1.5 miles from Brandon Street, so not that close. Moreover, the canal was 9 miles long, and we have no idea how far the body parts may have floated.

This seems a bit tenuous to me. Moreover, is it seriously being suggested that he would dismember a victim at his place of work? If not, what exactly is the connection supposed to be?

exactly John
and with Chapman-would he really kill and mutilate a victim in his Mums back yard? IMHO no of course not.

[Harry D]

Because I'm very lazy..
I think that time has passed for me. I'm not very good at identifying locations and their possible significance or on the psychology of serial killing and how it may apply. Which is something people seem to want included.
I'd love to do a book about Elizabeth Jackson alone, but I'm afraid it would be more of a social history study involving research into attitudes towards unwanted pregnancy, abortion, weird relationships with strange men, and exploring the possibility that her death was related to her circumstances as well as exploring other topics.

Tbh, all I'm looking for is a dispassionate, fact-based report of the Torso murders. I've heard Trow's book has numerous errors.

[Joshua Rogan]

There's also a confusing reference to a lime covered arm recovered at St George's Circus. What arm discovered at St George's Circus? There was a decomposed arm, that had been placed in lime, that was supposedly discovered by a boy passing the Blind School in the Lambeth Road (Pall Mall Gazette, Friday 28 September 1888). And initially it was speculated in the press that this "discovery" was connected to the Pimlico Mystery (Whitehall Torso). However, it was made clear at the inquest that only the Pimlico arm was relevant: Dr Bond confirming that it accurately fitted the trunk.

As for the Lambeth Road "find":

"In fact the police all denied any knowledge of a human arm having been found, but the boy above mentioned-who is a shoeblack-adhered to his statement that the limb was removed to Kensington Lane Police Station." (Central News, as reported in the Dundee Courier, Wednesday 03 October 1888.)

John,
The Lambeth Road find and St George's Circus find are one and the same - the blind school was located on Lambeth Road but in the angle with London Road, they meet at the Circus, where an entrance to the school was located.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra. The Battersea lime argument is very confusing. Are the authors suggesting that Battersea Park would have been covered in lime at the time to aid plant growth? Was there any suggestion that any of Jackson's remains had been preserved in lime? There's also a confusing reference to a lime covered arm recovered at St George's Circus. What arm discovered at St George's Circus? There was a decomposed arm, that had been placed in lime, tha was supposedly discovered by a boy passing the Blind School in the Lambeth Road (Pall Mall Gazette, Friday 28 September 1888). And initially it was speculated on the press that this "discovery" was connected to the Pimlico Mystery (Whitehall Torso). However, it was made clear at the inquest that only the Pimlico arm was relevant: Dr Bond confirming that it accurately fitted the trunk.

As for the Lambeth Road "find":

"In fact the police all denied any knowledge of a human arm having been found, but the boy above mentioned-who is a shoeblack-adhered to his statement that the limb was removed to Kensington Lane Police Station." (Central News, as reported in the Dundee Courier, Wednesday 03 October 1888.)

Thanks, John. That's exactly the thing I could not make head nor tail out of either. Portions of Elizabeth Jackson's body were found in the park and none were described as having signs of lime on them. The very fact that the authors refer (incorrectly as I have discussed before) to an arm being found in the Whitehall vault would surely alert them in that they had a spare arm going on in that case!!
The arm find in the vault is directly attributable to a couple (maybe even just one ) newspapers error in replacing the word 'leg' with 'arm' in an otherwise verbatim press agency report. Trow went with it being both an arm and a leg, but Hebbert's 1888 essay, based on Bond's post mortem findings, shows that only one arm was found, a few weeks before in early September in the Thames, as you rightly note.
This is one of those annoying times when the authors describe the lime covered arm as being attributed to the 'Thames torso series, ' not specifying who made that link or when. These cases were never referred to as the 'Thames Torso series' in the contemporary press or reports.

[Debra A]

Debra A why haven't you written a book on the Torsos yet? You know you wanna!

Because I'm very lazy..
I think that time has passed for me. I'm not very good at identifying locations and their possible significance or on the psychology of serial killing and how it may apply. Which is something people seem to want included.
I'd love to do a book about Elizabeth Jackson alone, but I'm afraid it would be more of a social history study involving research into attitudes towards unwanted pregnancy, abortion, weird relationships with strange men, and exploring the possibility that her death was related to her circumstances as well as exploring other topics.

[John G]

Yes, that seems to be the suggestion, John. Apart from Elizabeth Jackson, a woman we are told absolutely nothing else about, who they suggest was dismembered in Battersea Park. The supposed Battersea Park lime clue puzzled me the most.

Thanks Debra. The Battersea lime argument is very confusing. Are the authors suggesting that Battersea Park would have been covered in lime at the time to aid plant growth? Was there any suggestion that any of Jackson's remains had been preserved in lime? There's also a confusing reference to a lime covered arm recovered at St George's Circus. What arm discovered at St George's Circus? There was a decomposed arm, that had been placed in lime, that was supposedly discovered by a boy passing the Blind School in the Lambeth Road (Pall Mall Gazette, Friday 28 September 1888). And initially it was speculated in the press that this "discovery" was connected to the Pimlico Mystery (Whitehall Torso). However, it was made clear at the inquest that only the Pimlico arm was relevant: Dr Bond confirming that it accurately fitted the trunk.

As for the Lambeth Road "find":

"In fact the police all denied any knowledge of a human arm having been found, but the boy above mentioned-who is a shoeblack-adhered to his statement that the limb was removed to Kensington Lane Police Station." (Central News, as reported in the Dundee Courier, Wednesday 03 October 1888.)

[MrBarnett]

I think I noticed Trow referring to the cat's meat man as a travelling butcher? That probably fed in to the knacker notion too?

Yes. I don’t know how much butchery they actually did, though. Chopping or slicing cooked meat into bite-size chunks, perhaps, but beyond that...?