the victims werent prostitutes

[MrBarnett]

The hardcore of activists refusing to leave the square consisted of two teenaged males, 19 and 16, and 8 females whose ages were:

65,
60,
50,
36,
32,
30,
18,
16.

A desperate cadre of militant activists, clearly, especially 65-year-old Elizabeth Pegram, whose cover was apparently that of a destitute charwoman who repeatedly turned up at various workhouses just to keep up the pretence.

[MrBarnett]

If that's your point, Mike, I don't have too many issues with it. My beef is with the conspiracy theorists who think that the Canonical Five must have been great mates.

Don't get too excited, though, because when I say "I don't have too many issues", I mean just that. I believe that it's perfectly possible that they weren't even nodding acquaintances.

The problem with those theorists' idea, though, is that if the 5 'must' have known each other, then so 'must' hundreds - thousands - of others. So even if they did know each other it would have no significance.

[packers stem]

The hardcore of activists refusing to leave the square consisted of two teenaged males, 19 and 16, and 8 females whose ages were:

65,
60,
50,
36,
32,
30,
18,
16.

A desperate cadre of militant activists, clearly, especially 65-year-old Elizabeth Pegram, whose cover was apparently that of a destitute charwoman who repeatedly turned up at various workhouses just to keep up the pretence.

Good luck
That's 5 of typical activist age .... including Nichols .
Why do you think the two lads were with these ladies ?
Have a read up on Annie Besant .... her choice of clothing including neckerchief
Same with the matchgirls.
Then consider the red neckerchief worn by Eddowes .
The white and red one worn by Chapman (over her black woolen scarf so clearly worn for display and not warmth)
The coloured/striped one worn by stride (described as pink in the Daily News, white and Red striped ? )
Not a blue , green , yellow , black , orange neckerchief in sight

Oh and a statement by a certain Mr Hutchinson
Genuine or not the red handkerchief crept in lol

Coffee , wake , smell ��

[MrBarnett]

Good luck
That's 5 of typical activist age .... including Nichols .
Why do you think the two lads were with these ladies ?
Have a read up on Annie Besant .... her choice of clothing including neckerchief
Same with the matchgirls.
Then consider the red neckerchief worn by Eddowes .
The white and red one worn by Chapman (over her black woolen scarf so clearly worn for display and not warmth)
The coloured/striped one worn by stride (described as pink in the Daily News, white and Red striped ? )
Not a blue , green , yellow , black , orange neckerchief in sight

Oh and a statement by a certain Mr Hutchinson
Genuine or not the red handkerchief crept in lol

Coffee , wake , smell ��

Free coffee was given out in Trafalgar Square, no doubt by activists wearing red 'kerchiefs.

[MrBarnett]

Good luck
That's 5 of typical activist age .... including Nichols .
Why do you think the two lads were with these ladies ?
Have a read up on Annie Besant .... her choice of clothing including neckerchief
Same with the matchgirls.
Then consider the red neckerchief worn by Eddowes .
The white and red one worn by Chapman (over her black woolen scarf so clearly worn for display and not warmth)
The coloured/striped one worn by stride (described as pink in the Daily News, white and Red striped ? )
Not a blue , green , yellow , black , orange neckerchief in sight

Oh and a statement by a certain Mr Hutchinson
Genuine or not the red handkerchief crept in lol

Coffee , wake , smell ��

BTW, I don't have to 'read up' on Annie Besant.

[Wickerman]

Why is it that Mary has been so hard to find in any records Roy. Maybe because some of what we believe about her is incorrect...like maybe her name and background? Since no-one has found her, its possible she didnt want to be found. Or that she wasnt a Mary Kelly at all.

Exactly where I am on this. The real name of the woman found in room 13 was likely not Mary Kelly.
The next big question for me is, did she know a real Mary Kelly?
If you are going to adopt a fake persona, it is always wise to pick one you are familiar with. The woman in room 13 gave a fairly adventurous background, it just may be partly true.

[MrBarnett]

Exactly where I am on this. The real name of the woman found in room 13 was likely not Mary Kelly.
The next big question for me is, did she know a real Mary Kelly?
If you are going to adopt a fake persona, it is always wise to pick one you are familiar with. The woman in room 13 gave a fairly adventurous background, it just may be partly true.

If you had to choose a false surname in that place and at that time, 'Kelly' wouldn't have been an odd choice.

Some of what 'Kelly' told Joe Barnett has been supported by modern research. The Morganstone, McCarthy, Buki, Felix, Breezers Hill/Pennington Street stuff checks out to a considerable degree. Perhaps the Welsh/Irish stuff would too, if only we knew her real name.

[MrBarnett]

Here's a question: at what point did Joe Barnett realise there were two places in Wales with similar-sounding names - Carmarthen and Carnarvon?

My guess would be when he was interviewed by the police.

[Sam Flynn]

Here's a question: at what point did Joe Barnett realise there were two places in Wales with similar-sounding names - Carmarthen and Carnarvon?

My guess would be when he was interviewed by the police.

If only Barnett and/or the police had realised that there were two similar sounding others, both called Cwmafan/Cwmavon (pronounced "Cwm-AAH-vun"), one 15 miles from Newport and the other just outside Port Talbot, and both associated with iron and steel works.

I know that there was a fair bit of Irish immigration to Port Talbot in the 19th century as I was in school with some of their descendants, and the same was true of Newport.

http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/ptalbot.html

[packers stem]

BTW, I don't have to 'read up' on Annie Besant.

I'm pleased to hear that .
You will know about her wearing of a red neckerchief at that time and her involvement at Trafalgar square .
That's good

[Michael W Richards]

If that's your point, Mike, I don't have too many issues with it. My beef is with the conspiracy theorists who think that the Canonical Five must have been great mates.

Don't get too excited, though, because when I say "I don't have too many issues", I mean just that. I believe that it's perfectly possible that they weren't even nodding acquaintances.

I get the concession codicil Sam.

What I was intending to point out that a possible "knowledge of" is in my estimation still being prudent. As you know I find the alias choices made by Kate in her last 24 hours...during a period we are told she was contemplating going to the police with her suspicions about the killer at large, too coincidental to dismiss. The only thing missing from Marys complete name and address within those 2 aliases is the "2" for 26 Dorset. I think that's an indication she "had knowledge of" what turns out to be the subsequent victim. The Irish connections also might have some bearing here.

[Michael W Richards]

Exactly where I am on this. The real name of the woman found in room 13 was likely not Mary Kelly.
The next big question for me is, did she know a real Mary Kelly?
If you are going to adopt a fake persona, it is always wise to pick one you are familiar with. The woman in room 13 gave a fairly adventurous background, it just may be partly true.

Agreed Jon. I think she knew someone whose background she could use, or, more tantalizingly, was she given a background story which she then may or not have embellished?

You know me and my theorizing ...what if the Paris story is missing the detail that she was sent with someone to Paris, perhaps only as arm candy with an undercover investigator. She returned scared, and asked for some way she could disappear into the local woodwork.

[Michael W Richards]

Ive been a little tangential lately so to get back on the tracks, I don't think anyone can dispute with evidence that all 5 of the Canonicals, and many of the other victims in the unsolved file, did at some point or another solicit for their food and shelter...or booze.

What I think is important here though is which ones were doing just that when they met their killer(s). The absence of evidence of a key ingredient for the killer of Polly and Annie, their being in a position where they are actively luring strange men into the shadows, is clear in the remaining 3 Canonicals.

If they were not soliciting, then they may not have been killed by an opportunistic stranger.

[PaulB]

Ive been a little tangential lately so to get back on the tracks, I don't think anyone can dispute with evidence that all 5 of the Canonicals, and many of the other victims in the unsolved file, did at some point or another solicit for their food and shelter...or booze.

What I think is important here though is which ones were doing just that when they met their killer(s). The absence of evidence of a key ingredient for the killer of Polly and Annie, their being in a position where they are actively luring strange men into the shadows, is clear in the remaining 3 Canonicals.

If they were not soliciting, then they may not have been killed by an opportunistic stranger.

The trouble is that we don't know and can't know what they were doing when they met their murderer. If they had never prostituted themselves then we might assume that they wouldn't have been doing so on the night they were killed, but if they had prostituted themselves in the past, could they have been persuaded to do so again by their killer, even if it hadn't been their intention to do so at all?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

I agree with you regarding MJK not being the victim's real name.

You ask, "Did she [the victim] know a real Mary Kelly?"

You then go on to say, "If you are going to adopt a fake persona, it is always wise to pick one you are familiar with."

Agreed. I would only add that it is even wiser to pick the persona of someone who is roughly the same age and already dead.

I disagree with Michael's comment, "was she given a background story which she then may or may not have embellished?"

The victim didn't need to know anything about a "real Mary Kelly" as she had no lines to learn. But others needed to know these life story details in order to pass off the victim as MJK. And all we know about MJK are third-party accounts of bits of her life history from Joe Barnett, Mrs Felix [Phoenix] and Mrs Carthy.

Barnett told the Coroner that he had frequent conversations with MJK about her parents. We do not know if this is true. All we know is that he reeled off her life history to the inquest in chronological order. So had she actually told him all this detail, or had he been taught it by rote?

If the Room 13 victim was someone other than MJK, what made it necessary to go to into such unconfirmable detail in order to satisfy everyone that the victim actually was someone known as MJK?

If not MJK, who could the Room 13 victim have been?

Regards,

Simon