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the victims werent prostitutes

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  • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
    Barnett, Felix and Carthy may have known one another.
    They lived in different parts of the East End, and I'm unaware of anything that places Barnett in or around the Ratcliffe Highway, whence Carthy and Felix hailed.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
      Did Joseph Barnett know Mrs Felix and Mrs Carthy?

      You'll have to decide for yourself.

      The man Joseph Barnett called Morganstone [who had lived with Kelly] was Adrianus Morganstern, a gas stoker.

      In 1891 Morganstern lived with Elizabeth Felix [wrongly named Phoenix] at 157 Bow Common Lane, the address she gave to the police at Leman Street police station on Sunday 11th November 1888 when telling her part of the Mary Kelly narrative.

      Kelly, she said, had lived in her brother-in-law's house on Breezer's Hill.

      The brother-in-law's name was Johannes Morganstern. He lived with Elizabeth Boekü [Buki] at 79 Pennington Street [adjacent to Breezers Hill].

      Mrs McCarthy [or Carthy?], the third person involved in the Kelly narrative, lived at 1 Breezer's Hill.

      All credit to Neal Sheldon for his research.

      Regards,

      Simon
      Oh dear, you are behind the times.

      There was a Mrs McCarthy living at 1, Breezers Hill in 1891, but she wasn't 'Mrs McCarthy' in 1888.
      Last edited by MrBarnett; 10-16-2018, 11:43 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        They lived in different parts of the East End, and I'm unaware of anything that places Barnett in or around the Ratcliffe Highway, whence Carthy and Felix hailed.
        He was born nearby, of course. And according to his Billingsgate records, he did live there as an adult.
        Last edited by MrBarnett; 10-16-2018, 11:35 PM.

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        • Ah, I was unaware of his adult connection. Thanks, Gary.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            Ah, I was unaware of his adult connection. Thanks, Gary.
            He gave NE Passage as an address to the Billingsgate authorities, I believe. That was off Wellclose Square, which in turn was just across the Highway from Breezers Hill. Pearly Poll and her old man lived there too.

            You may read how, when his father died, he and his siblings moved to the 'notorious slum' of Great Pearl Street. A veritable paradise in comparison to the Blue Anchor Yard court where he had been born, I'd say. The McCarthies also lived in a BAY court (they were Eastenders long before they moved to the Borough) as did the family of Margaret Sullivan, who later became William Crossingham's wife.
            Last edited by MrBarnett; 10-17-2018, 12:36 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post

              The man Joseph Barnett called Morganstone [who had lived with Kelly] was Adrianus Morganstern, a gas stoker.

              In 1891 Morganstern lived with Elizabeth Felix [wrongly named Phoenix] at 157 Bow Common Lane, the address she gave to the police at Leman Street police station on Sunday 11th November 1888 when telling her part of the Mary Kelly narrative.
              Simon, Adrianus Felix (Morgenstern) and his 'wife' Elizabeth Felix were living at 20 Cordelia Street, St Leonards in the 1891 census entry found by Jenni Shelden.
              ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸, Debs ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,

              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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              • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                Simon, Adrianus Felix (Morgenstern) and his 'wife' Elizabeth Felix were living at 20 Cordelia Street, St Leonards in the 1891 census entry found by Jenni Shelden.
                Thanks, Debs!

                This may not be an unbiased opinion, but for me, the Ratcliffe Highway looms large in the MJK story. When she was there the western end of it was a mega red light district, seemingly with connections to the West End and the continent. I doubt she just drifted there.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                  Thanks, Debs!

                  This may not be an unbiased opinion, but for me, the Ratcliffe Highway looms large in the MJK story. When she was there the western end of it was a mega red light district, seemingly with connections to the West End and the continent. I doubt she just drifted there.
                  I think you are right, Gary.
                  ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸, Debs ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,

                  I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                  Comment


                  • Interestingly, Barnett and MJK first lived together in George Street, where he claimed he was 'known'. John Satchell ran doss houses there and one in NE Passage.
                    Last edited by MrBarnett; 10-17-2018, 04:14 AM.

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                    • The other person mentioned by Neal Shelden in a Breezer's Hill context is Stephen Maywood. He would have been living at 1, Breezer's Hill when MJK was almost certainly living next door at 79, Pennington Street. There is evidence that both houses were used as brothels (as were all the other houses in Breezer's Hill at one time or another) and ca 1890 Maywood and his next door neighbours, the Morganstern and Woodhouse(McCarthy) families all relocated to Limehouse. The Maywoods and the Woodhouses (McCarthy was the wife's maiden name) went to Rich Street, another street of brothels, and the Morgansterns to the nearby West India Dock Road, a couple of doors away from a Lodging house later run by Jack McCarthy (not sure if he was there in 1890).

                      So far, so seedy. But what makes Maywood of particular interest is that at some point in the 1890s he seems to have found a magic money tree and is able to buy (and in a number of cases I believe burn down) a succession of farms and other properties.

                      He and his son of the same name were real characters. There's some info about them here:

                      http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....aywood&page=15


                      If anyone is looking for a rough diamond 007 to slot into their Fenian secret squirrel theory, SM's the man. Where did he get his money from???

                      Debra in particular has done a lot of research on the 79, Pennington Street characters, including locating (I'd say) the true 'Mrs Carthy'). I've done a bit on Maywood, who I feel must at least have known MJK.
                      Last edited by MrBarnett; 10-17-2018, 06:29 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                        The Echo reporter also tells us:

                        "Prior to lodging in Miller's-court, the murdered woman lived at 35, Dorset-street - a common lodging-house, frequented at the time by Annie Chapman, one of the East-end victims - while her place of abode previous to that was curiously enough in Flower and Dean-street."

                        The previous day the Echo were saying:

                        "Singular to relate, the murdered woman, Annie Chapman, was a friend of this very Mary Jane Kelly."

                        Doss-house gossip or journalistic embellishment?
                        There was more than one Mary Kelly. A 23 year old woman of that name appears on the 1881 census at the Whitechapel Union District Infirmary with her occupation listed as 'Prostitute'.
                        "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                          There was more than one Mary Kelly. A 23 year old woman of that name appears on the 1881 census at the Whitechapel Union District Infirmary with her occupation listed as 'Prostitute'.
                          Yes, there was. There was also a young widow named Emma Davies in there at the same time - from memory. She was a lamplighter's widow (gas explosion? I asked myself) and had been born on a ship from Canada (I think).

                          If you want the ingredients for a romantic background, it's pretty much all there.

                          Comment


                          • Hi Simon,

                            Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                            The victim didn't need to know anything about a "real Mary Kelly" as she had no lines to learn. But others needed to know these life story details in order to pass off the victim as MJK. ...

                            Barnett ... reeled off her life history to the inquest in chronological order. So had she actually told him all this detail, or had he been taught it by rote?
                            ...had he been taught it by rote?
                            ... You wondered out loud.

                            Who taught Joseph Barnett his lines? You didn't say.

                            Absent you proposing who gave Joe his lines, your suggestion is more perplexing than the idea itself.

                            Roy
                            Sink the Bismark

                            Comment


                            • Hi Roy,

                              I didn't say, because I don't know.

                              Yes, it's perplexing but perfectly possible.

                              Regards,

                              Simon
                              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                              Comment


                              • It seems like Kelly stayed in a french lady's brothel,sent to France but "She said she did not like the part...
                                She was not there more than a fortnight.." (Barnett), brothel lost their "cut" and "disappointing" the brothel's client,kicked her out,then she moved intothe Morganstones,with Buki went back to french lady's brothel and took her remaining clothes,overstayed with the Morganstones,then moved to (Mc)Carthy.

                                Barnett:
                                [Coroner] Have you had conversation with deceased about her parents ? - Yes, frequently...There were six brothers living in London..

                                Since the news of the murder was "big" and none of them "claimed" Kelly's body her name was not Mary Kelly most likely.I think it's not unusual for "unfortunates to change their names.

                                Mrs. Rees is interesting.

                                The Star
                                LONDON. MONDAY, 12 NOVEMBER, 1888
                                It appears from inquiries made at Carmarthen and Swansea, that after leaving the former place for the latter, Kelly, who was then only 17 years of age, entered the service of a Mrs. Rees, who stands committed to the next assizes on a charge of procuring abortion, and who is the daughter of a medical man formerly resident at Carmarthen.

                                ----
                                Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                                M. Pacana

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