the victims werent prostitutes

[Michael W Richards]

There must be more to it than that, surely. How would the fact that Kate had lived with an Irishman who was a pensioner from the British army and another man with an Irish name lead you to the conclusion that she knew 'bad dude Fenians types'?

He was a member of The Royal Irish....and she tattooed her allegiance to him on her forearm.

Nice points about what was going on in and around Mitre Square jerryd. Anyone who chooses to view these murders as simply independant events which happened to coincide with the public review of allegations that a member of Parliament was co-operating and/or directing Fenian terrorist activities does so at their own risk. Look for opportunities for any of these victims to be exposed to those kinds of men, and in some cases, youll find them. Mary may well have been Irish. Kate obviously was tied emotionally to someone who would likely have met such characters on the streets and in the pubs. Irish gathered to Irish, Immigrant Jew to Immigrant Jew, all the various ethnicity spent time with their own. Its still the same today. In Toronto we have neighborhoods where signs are in languages other than French or English, with Tea Houses that have signs in Korean or Chinese. In London you have districts where there are ethnic populations that are the overwhelming majorities in those areas. People gather with people they share Politics with, or Heritages, or belief systems. Any Irish person living in the East End at that point in time could easily have heard of or known Irish men that were planning or executing terrorist acts locally. And in some cases, they would be reluctant to turn them in because of those bonds.

Like not providing an ID as a witness because the accused was of the same religion, faith, or belief.

And for Sam, all these women at some point street walked within the same areas. We know that they drank at the same pubs. Some shared street addresses, some stayed at the same lodging houses. To imagine they might have met each other, at least in some cases, isnt too hard to imagine.

[Michael W Richards]

There's a magnificent image! Would you mind if I use that at some point?

I admit I smiled when that came to me, it does seem appropriately dark. Im not a writer like many of you, but occasionally I can be an amateur wordsmith. I think AP Wolf taught me that imagination and data can co-operate in some meaningful ways.

Use as you wish Ginger, Im pleased you found it catchy.

[Michael W Richards]

An excellent point, Roy.

And by the way, Michael, Anderson didn't go anywhere near Switzerland.

I suspect your right about point 2 Simon, but I dont see the story about Marys stay in Paris for a fortnight impossible at all considering her up-status bordello life at that time, and her corroborated finer attire.

I could see her sitting at tables with someone like Millen or others quite easily in that scenario. That might scare any small town gal.

[Busy Beaver]

Polly Nichols told Emily Holland at 0.230am on the morning of her death that she had had her doss money three times that day. So how did she get that money? Polly had been sacked by her previous employer for stealing and that was how she ended up in Whitechapel living in a doss house. So she either sold something, was given money by someone, or did a" trick" or two or maybe even three. If she didn't solicit, she may used the lines, "Please Sir or Madam, can you spare some change". Not sure how well that would work in the very early hours of the morning, before she became a victim of the Ripper.

[MrBarnett]

He was a member of The Royal Irish....and she tattooed her allegiance to him on her forearm.

Nice points about what was going on in and around Mitre Square jerryd. Anyone who chooses to view these murders as simply independant events which happened to coincide with the public review of allegations that a member of Parliament was co-operating and/or directing Fenian terrorist activities does so at their own risk. Look for opportunities for any of these victims to be exposed to those kinds of men, and in some cases, youll find them. Mary may well have been Irish. Kate obviously was tied emotionally to someone who would likely have met such characters on the streets and in the pubs. Irish gathered to Irish, Immigrant Jew to Immigrant Jew, all the various ethnicity spent time with their own. Its still the same today. In Toronto we have neighborhoods where signs are in languages other than French or English, with Tea Houses that have signs in Korean or Chinese. In London you have districts where there are ethnic populations that are the overwhelming majorities in those areas. People gather with people they share Politics with, or Heritages, or belief systems. Any Irish person living in the East End at that point in time could easily have heard of or known Irish men that were planning or executing terrorist acts locally. And in some cases, they would be reluctant to turn them in because of those bonds.

Like not providing an ID as a witness because the accused was of the same religion, faith, or belief.

And for Sam, all these women at some point street walked within the same areas. We know that they drank at the same pubs. Some shared street addresses, some stayed at the same lodging houses. To imagine they might have met each other, at least in some cases, isnt too hard to imagine.

Yes, we all know she had a long term relationship with an Irishman who had been in the British army - one who very likely treated her badly. We also know that after Conway she hooked up with a man with an Irish surname. So what? How does that lead you to think she knew the bad Fenian dudes you speak of? Why single Kate out as someone moving in such company?

What about Stride and Kidney? Tabram and Connolly? McKenzie and McCormack. Many of the lodging house keepers were of Irish descent. One notable exception was William Crossingham, but he married a woman of Irish descent. Did all these people know the BFDs?

It's also easy to imagine that they didn't know each other. How long was Nichols for example in the East End? Is it likely she got to know everyone in the area in such a short time?

[Sam Flynn]

And for Sam, all these women at some point street walked within the same areas.

That's assuming that the women in question were actively prostituting themselves at the same time. I'm not so sure that this would apply to Nichols, who doesn't seem to have been a long-term resident of Spitalfields; I might include Stride and Mary Kelly in that category, albeit they'd been around a little longer. Neither Chapman nor Eddowes strike me as having been regular prostitutes, for that matter.

In short, it's by no means certain that all five canonical victims would have been soliciting on the same streets simultaneously.

We know that they drank at the same pubs. Some shared street addresses, some stayed at the same lodging houses. To imagine they might have met each other, at least in some cases, isnt too hard to imagine.

The idea that they would have been acquainted with one another, simply because they'd stayed in Dorset Street on occasion, is what I struggle with. It's possible, of course, but it's nowhere near as probable as some people have made out, and it's certainly not axiomatic.

[MrBarnett]

Don't forget, Eddowes's dad organised a strike, for which he did a little bit of prison time. Afterwards, he couldn't find work in Wolverhampton and took his family to London... Eddowes' parental environment may have shaped her political thinking, but whether or not that would have got her in with Fenians is another matter.

And we shouldn't forget there was a lot of resentment of Irish workers 'taking the jobs' of Englishmen in Wolverhampton.

On one occasion William Eddowes, the uncle who took Kate in after her parents had died, allegedly said 'There's a (blank) Irishman, I'd as soon split his head as a turnip', before launching an attack on the said Irishman and his mates. A fight ensued and when the police turned up the Irishmen, and one woman, were arrested. The arresting officer was another member of the Eddowes family. He later stood up in court and admitted hitting one of the Irishmen with his staff, but said he couldn't remember whether he had blacked the woman's eyes.

[MrBarnett]

That's assuming that the women in question were actively prostituting themselves at the same time. I'm not so sure that this would apply to Nichols, who doesn't seem to have been a long-term resident of Spitalfields; I might include Stride and Mary Kelly in that category, albeit they'd been around a little longer. Neither Chapman nor Eddowes strike me as having been regular prostitutes, for that matter.

In short, it's by no means certain that all five canonical victims would have been soliciting on the same streets simultaneously.
The idea that they would have been acquainted with one another, simply because they'd stayed in Dorset Street on occasion, is what I struggle with. It's possible, of course, but it's nowhere near as probable as some people have made out, and it's certainly not axiomatic.

Couldn't agree more, Gareth.

We're also told that because they used the same small pubs, they must have known each other. No doubt these were the very pubs also used by the bad Fenian types. So everyone must have known everyone else?

[Sam Flynn]

Couldn't agree more, Gareth.

We're also told that because they used the same small pubs, they must have known each other. No doubt these were the very pubs also used by the bad Fenian types. So everyone must have known everyone else?

Indeed, Gary - then again, I know everyone who frequents my local pubs... not Even when I used to go every night, I never got to know everyone by name. And this in a village with fewer than 2,000 residents, not much more populous than three streets in the Spitalfields slums.

[packers stem]

Yes, we all know she had a long term relationship with an Irishman who had been in the British army - one who very likely treated her badly. We also know that after Conway she hooked up with a man with an Irish surname. So what? How does that lead you to think she knew the bad Fenian dudes you speak of? Why single Kate out as someone moving in such company?

What about Stride and Kidney? Tabram and Connolly? McKenzie and McCormack. Many of the lodging house keepers were of Irish descent. One notable exception was William Crossingham, but he married a woman of Irish descent. Did all these people know the BFDs?

It's also easy to imagine that they didn't know each other. How long was Nichols for example in the East End? Is it likely she got to know everyone in the area in such a short time?

Kidney was from Cork I believe .
Nichols was , in all probability, a political activist considering her arrest the previous year
The address on her death certificate was 35 Dorset Street , same as Chapman

[MrBarnett]

Kidney was from Cork I believe .
Nichols was , in all probability, a political activist considering her arrest the previous year
The address on her death certificate was 35 Dorset Street , same as Chapman

'In all probability?' She was arrested for being a homeless pain in the arse not a threat to the realm.

I have a copy of her death cert and, yes, you are right it says 35, Dorset Street. But when did she arrive in Dorset Street? Long enough before to get to know the other 4 gals and make contact with her Fenian controller, no doubt.

[packers stem]

'In all probability?' She was arrested for being a homeless pain in the arse not a threat to the realm.

I have a copy of her death cert and, yes, you are right it says 35, Dorset Street. But when did she arrive in Dorset Street? Long enough before to get to know the other 4 gals and make contact with her Fenian controller, no doubt.

https://turbulentlondon.com/2014/11/13/on-this-day-bloody-sunday-13th-november-1887/

It's clear that from the 17th of October the rallies , speeches and arrests gathered momentum .
She was arrested just over a week later I believe .
In all probability a little more to it than being a homeless pain in the arse.
She had the whole city to be a homeless pain in the arse in 😀

[packers stem]

I wonder who the fellow resident was who sold Chapman her red and white neckerchief that she wore ?

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder who the fellow resident was who sold Chapman her red and white neckerchief that she wore ?

Gladys Stoatpamphlet?

Just a guess.

[MrBarnett]

https://turbulentlondon.com/2014/11/...november-1887/

It's clear that from the 17th of October the rallies , speeches and arrests gathered momentum .
She was arrested just over a week later I believe .
In all probability a little more to it than being a homeless pain in the arse.
She had the whole city to be a homeless pain in the arse in 😀

As did all the other vagrants who congregated in the square each night.



How well do you know Trafalgar Square?