Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[jmenges]

I'll rewatch the UK show today to make sure I was not horribly mistaken when I first stated that about the missing Ms. Wills, and I'll attempt to track down a copy of the PBS version to see if there are any other differences.

No Beth Wills in the Channel 5 show. Her name appears in the credits under 'With Thanks To'.

JM

[jmenges]

Well, look at what someone posted on the PBS message boards about the Crippen show:

The 1910 census shows a Belle Rose, age 29, born in PA, single as a border with Samuel and Cora Bloom, at 415 E. 79th St, Manhattan. Her father born in Germany, mother PA. Occupation is milliner. This census was taken 15 Apr 1910.

The 1920 census, also shows Belle Rose at the same age, born in PA, both parents born in Germany. Occupation is designer, as previously noted. She is probably a designer of hats.

Given the above information and the fact that census takers sometimes made mistakes, I believe that these two persons are the same and that the Belle Rose living with Bertha Messinger is not Cora.

Interestingly, there is a female Crippen, age and first name unknown, who travelled from England to Gibraltar in 1910. The Belle Rose who came to NY in 1910, came from Bermuda on the ship Bermudian. The Bermudian did not sail from England in 1910. So did Cora travel under the Crippen name to Gibraltar, then travel to Bermuda and then using the name Belle Rose sail onward to NY. The passenger list does not provide any details as to contacts on either end of the voyage.

edit- which is a reply to this:

Although I was intrigued by the show and do feel that there are huge descrepancies in the original case, I am irritated at the genealogist who worked on the case, as of late. She stated that in the New York 1920 census, that Bertha Messinger (supposedly sister to Cora) and Belle Rose may very well be Cora Crippin (with her stage name) and her sister, Bertha Messinger, since Belle’s occupation was “singer”…….but it is untrue. First, Bertha is listed as Belle Rose’ cousin and secondadly, but most emphatically, Belle’s occupation is NOT “singer”, but rather, “Designer”. I was wondering WHY a genealogist for the PBS would tell such a tale, or are her eyes that bad?
I do feel however, that there are enough other circumstantial evidence questions, which point to the fact that the original investigation was not ample enough. Also, when doing female DNA testing, it must be of the two females for the samples to match. IF this sample was of a male, how on earth did it match to Cora’s great niece?
Haunting questions need real answers.
**

So Debs, it looks like the 'milliner' came from the 1910 census?

JM

[jmenges]

Thanks Debs,

I'll keep you posted.

There was more in that PM that was intriguing, wasn't there?

I too am confused what a 'Bella Rose' in the 1920 census would mean. My guess is that this person is not listed as living with a Mersinger but appears in the NY census as living with someone else, and they are two different people rather than the same individual counted twice. Hopefully we'll know more about this soon.

And I do wish to point out that when I first posted on this thread after the Channel 5 documentary aired, I stated that Beth Wills did not appear, nor was she named, in this production. I do realize that the version (of what I believe to be essentially the same program) that aired in the US this past week did have Ms. Wills in it, and she was identified. I'll rewatch the UK show today to make sure I was not horribly mistaken when I first stated that about the missing Ms. Wills, and I'll attempt to track down a copy of the PBS version to see if there are any other differences.

JM

[Debra A]

Thanks for the pm about this Jonathon.
I'm not really sure what your correspondent is saying, but hope he will post to clarify the matter.
Any other Belle Rose on the 1920 census is surely irrelevant? Or I may just be misunderstanding what was being said.

Regarding Jonathon's finding of Belle Hecht nee Rose, while I can't be 100 percent certain that the Belle Rose living with a Bertha Mersinger in the 1920 is the lady who would later marry Mr Hecht without ordering a marriage certificate, there are several things that point to her being a very strong candidate.
I don't want to post too much about the Hecht family on the boards as it's quite recent family history, some members of the family are still obviously alive and some of the information could be considered of a sensitive nature.

[jmenges]

Belle Rose, designer

Hi all,

In response to an email I received, I am bringing the topic of the 'Belle Rose' identified by Beth Wills as residing with Cora's half-sister in New York back up. Here is the page where Debra discovered the mistaken reading by Ms. Wills of the census record.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=939&page=11

And some comments by Debra on this topic:

I may have the wrong entry, as not many details of Belle Rose were given away by Wills, other than she was living with Cora's sister in New York in 1920

The Belle Rose (designer) I found was living with a Bertha Messinger b 1892 [ alternative name Brtha Mersinger provided by a user of the site,] in New York. The fact that someone has provided the alternative surname Mersinger might be an indication it's the one used by Beth Wills, I can't find any other Belle Rose that fits, and there aren't that many to chose from. Only trouble is, the Belle Rose living with Bertha [her cousin] was only a year older than Bertha and b c 1891.

The Belle Rose BW identifies as coming into New York from Bermuda in 1910, was born c 1872.

***

Looking back at post #66 of Jonathon's about a document sent to him by Beth Wills, where she says this about the Belle Rose finding:

Quote:
Cora’s stage name was Belle Elmore. Interestingly enough, in the 1920 census in New York, we find a female with the same name as Cora’s younger half-sister Bertha Mersinger, living with a “cousin” by the name of Belle Rose. This Belle is the same age that Cora would have been in 1920, gives her occupation as a SINGER and is found entering the US through Ellis Island from Bermuda in August of 1910.
It looks like the Belle Rose 'designer' entry I found is the same one. I've posted a section so that the age of Belle Rose can be seen, nowhere near the age Cora Crippen would have been in 1920. I think maybe BW might have mistaken the numbering after the word 'head' as Belle's age when in fact her age is given further along, as 29.

Name: bertha messinger 1920.jpg Views: 151 Size: 22.5 KB

The mentioning of Belle Rose doesn't alter anything of the test results, or is anything more than a bit of idle specualtion on Wills part, but it doesn't half make you question the quality of the research that these DNA experiments on family members was based on.

from, w/ image attached: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=939&page=12

We can read on from there.

I wish to inform (or remind) my email communicator that I had searched the New York Times archive and discovered that this Belle Rose married, had childern, and was Jewish. Debra has pretty much established that this Jewish Belle Rose is the one identified in the census, and so not the Catholic wife of Dr. Crippen. This information too is contained somewhere in this thread.

If my correspondent is "lurking", on this thread, we are more than willing to hear your findings and views on this subject.

Thanks,

JM

[Wickerman]

Ladies & Gents, a multi-response post..

Mitch.
I completely agree with you, on the face of it this is ridiculous. And, not having studied anything of this case I have more questions than answers.

Lets assume the remains ARE of Cora Crippen, then I have to ask:
- Are all her remains in the hole in the cellar? - if not, why not?
- were any of her remains found in the immediate vicinity?, walls, garden, etc.
The documentary would have us believe that 90+% of the 'body' (whosever it was) is missing. IF this is true, we must question why Crippen would successfully dispose of 90% of her remains, only to then lift up basement stone flags and dig a hole to deposit less than a bucket full of flesh?
Where's the sense in that, indeed, where is the sense in posing such a scenario? (I acknowledge c.d. points this out too).
If Crippen had kept her head, as some sort of sick trophy, we could probably accept that (not unheard of), but that is not the case. Apparently the remains were unrecognizable as specific anatomical parts (or did I miss something?).
Either her whole body was buried in the cellar, or we have an equally ridiculous scenario to contend with. 90% of her body is successfully deposited elsewhere and only a bucket full was buried in the house? - equally ridiculous!

Celesta.
Thankyou, I see then we are to take the result as 'conclusive'?
This is thee principal issue. Nothing else matters concerning what or whose DNA turns up wherever. Thee principal argument in this whole case is to confirm whether the conclusion of the DNA test which provided the designation 'male' can be trusted.
If confirmed by a unbiased source then yes Crippen must be pardoned.

Yes, Dan, there's a whole host of IF's, the whole scenario is very iffy.

Thanks for all your input(s)

[Dan Norder]

(assuming the result was correct)

Assuming that the result was accurate for the material tested, and also assuming that the material tested was really that from the corpse in question and not contaminant DNA from another source (modern or old) or material taken from a completely mislabeled slide.

[c.d.]

The whole thing is just the most ridiculus scam I ever heard of. Of course it was Cora Crippen in the cellar They are just making it all up to cause headlines. Next they will have proof she was alive and well and living in Skaguay. This is one test result I refuse to take seriously.

Hi Mitch,

It is hard to believe but there was another point that was made that was very interesting. Why did they only find some of the remains? As they said, why dispose of some body parts like the head outside of the home? Why not bury all of the body in the cellar? That is very strange.

c.d.

[Celesta]

Hello Wickerman,

They supposedly ran the test twice because the first time it came up male, and they didn't believe it. The second time they got the same results---male.

[Mitch Rowe]

The whole thing is just the most ridiculus scam I ever heard of. Of course it was Cora Crippen in the cellar They are just making it all up to cause headlines. Next they will have proof she was alive and well and living in Skaguay. This is one test result I refuse to take seriously.

[Wickerman]

Right, thanks.
So, regardless whether his wife is dead or alive, he was charged based on 'those remains' being of his wife, hence, he wrongfully charged, yes?
(assuming the result was correct)

Regards...

[jmenges]

Wasn't the DNA in the remains determined to be male?

That's what they said.

JM

[Wickerman]

I see the recent posts are concerned about who's DNA is present, but didn't I hear one scientist say (on the program) that at the very least they can determine whether the DNA is male or female?

Wasn't the DNA in the remains determined to be male?

Has this been changed, questioned?

I have a tape of the show but have not re-run it yet.

thanks..

[Celesta]

Hi Jonathon.

Yes, I saw that about the whopping amount they wanted to test the hair. You may be right and Spilsbury's DNA, or even an assistant's, didn't get into the slide. Hair would be better.

Anyway, is this the end of it? If so, I almost wish they would have just left it alone. Dew, the London police, and Spilsbury were all trashed by this. Now, I will be wondering over it.

Best,

Cel

[jmenges]

Hi Celesta,

As you may have read somewhere in this thread already, I had recommended to Dr. Foran that he obtain Cora's DNA from another source and compare a known sample of her DNA to the tissue. I personally told Dr. Foran of a stamp presumably licked by Cora Crippen that is known to exist, Dr. Foran stated that he made no effort to obtain any kind of DNA from Cora Crippen but would be willing to test any sample I could provide. I contacted a gentleman who possesses a stamped postcard which was sent by Cora, but he, rightly so in my opinion (strengthened especially by hind sight), declined to turn over the postcard for testing.

Although in correspondence with me Dr. Foran said he had made no attempt to track down anything (other than the slide) which may contain Mrs. Crippen's DNA, John Trestrail has claimed that he inquired about the hair in the roller found in the grave but Scotland Yard's price for testing that item exceeded the research teams budget.

It should be noted that hair is a much better source of mtDNA testing than skin tissue, as it is less likely to be contaminated in the lab and produce false results.

Edit- I just saw your edit, and I agree that even had they obtained Cora's DNA from another source, the chances are good that they would still not match the slide if indeed the slide was contaminated with all the disinfectant, pine tar, etc. As far as eliminating Spillbury, I doubt that the slide contains his DNA in the first place, and I would be against this research team bugging anyone else's descendants for samples in this matter.

JM