Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[Robert]

But this is Ripperland, Debs. There's bound to be a hitch.....

[Debra A]

Ah, thanks Robert!
So, a death certificate of that period should contain details of parents, marriage etc, provided that the informant knew that information.

[Robert]

Debs, hope this helps.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.casebook.org/images/c-brown1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-carrieb.html&h=543&w=542&sz=91&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=ciUP8UnXJE0RTM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfrancis%2Btumblety%2Bdeath%2Bcertificate%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Debra A]

I forgot to mention, I have found an entry and certificate number in the New York death index for a Mary Mersinger, dated 1904. The age of this Mary Mersinger is 50 (b c 1854) and the death was registered in the Queens district of New York, the last known address of Mary (Wolffe?) Mersinger in 1900.
Age and district match and there doesn't appear to be any other possible match on the 1900 census.
Has anyone any experience of US death certificates for this period? I'm wondering what information is likely to be on one?

[Debra A]

Whoever this Bertha [?Mersinger] is, on the information provided by Beth Wills, she can't be Cora's sister Bertha, who - according to Wills - had married Arthur Baum and had a child who was born in 1912. Beth Wills described the woman in the census rather precisely as "a female with the same name as Cora’s younger half-sister Bertha Mersinger".

I wonder why Beth Wills ever drew attention to Belle Rose in the first place given the research and information that must have been provided by Bertha's descendants on the whereabouts of Bertha Mersinger in 1920.

There is an online family tree featuring the Santangelo family, that apparently provided the female DNA samples mentioned by Beth Wills:

Bertha, born in March of 1893 is the line that we follow to the living female descendants. Bertha married Arthur Baum. Bertha and Arthur had a daughter, Lucy (Louise) was born in 1912. She died in 1973. Lucy, who married Felix Santangelo had 4 children. Cell samples were taken from these daughters ( and one granddaughter) for the project

According to the online family tree, Bertha married two men, Arthur Baum and then William Smith (no sources given). The child Lucy (Louise), mentioned by Beth Wills (Lucy Louise Baum Smith in the family tree) is strangely listed as a child from both marriages and was born in 1912.
In the 1920 New York census I found a Louise Smith aged 7 living with her parents William and Bertha Smith. Bertha's age is 26, she was born in New York. Her father's place of birth is given as Germany and her mother's place of birth is given as New York.....it seems to fit what is known of Bertha and the details given by the family.
Other children on the census are Bertha and Anna, and these children also appear in the family tree.

[Chris]

The other curious thing is that many people - including the executive producer of the TV documentary, in an article in the Times - are claiming that Belle Rose was living with Cora's sister in 1920.

Whoever this Bertha [?Mersinger] is, on the information provided by Beth Wills, she can't be Cora's sister Bertha, who - according to Wills - had married Arthur Baum and had a child who was born in 1912. Beth Wills described the woman in the census rather precisely as "a female with the same name as Cora’s younger half-sister Bertha Mersinger".

The irony is that if the woman in the census were Cora's sister, it would mean that Wills had traced the marriage and descendants of the wrong Bertha Mersinger, and that Trestrail and his colleagues had used the wrong mitochondrial DNA in their tests!

[Debra A]

Debra:

So to recap. The amateur genealogist mistook DESIGNER for SINGER and
48 which is the number of head of households as Cora´s age. Amazing !

Maria

Maria
As far as the Belle Rose research goes,that's it in a nutshell! This identification wasn't anything to do with the DNA testing obviously, but one only has to google "Belle Rose" and Crippen together to see how far this speculation about Belle Rose has spread and what it has become!

As Jonathon pointed out right at the beginning, and Chris has commented on throughout, the crucial thing missing from Beth Wills' research ( that which has been made known so far) is proof of a definite maternal blood link between Cora Crippen and the females involved in the mtDNA testing.
I can understand BW not wanting all her research made public, but that evidence is one element that is essential if these people really want us to believe their claims surely?

[Maria]

Debra:

So to recap. The amateur genealogist mistook DESIGNER for SINGER and
48 which is the number of head of households as Cora´s age. Amazing !

Maria

[Debra A]

Thanks everyone.
The speed at which I could find this information, armed with just a few ancient library books on Crippen and a 'lend' of ancestry.com for a couple of days is what disturbs me too.

[Maria]

Debra:

Sterling interesting work you have done there.

Head 48, is the number of Head of households in a particular enumeration district, even I know that, and I don´t know much about American census.

The article I read says that the Crippen family employed an amateur geneologist. A very incompetent and blind one by the looks of it.

-Maria

[Ally]

Really interesting discoveries here. It is amazing to me that this has all been uncovered in a few days, which casts serious doubt on how much real research was done to compile the findings in favor of Crippen.

Good work Debs.

[jmenges]

Debs,

You're too awesome for words.

Check your PMs.

Thanks a bunch for adding so much to this subject.

JM

[Debra A]

Thanks Robert,
I may have the wrong entry, as not many details of Belle Rose were given away by Wills, other than she was living with Cora's sister in New York in 1920

The Belle Rose (designer) I found was living with a Bertha Messinger b 1892 [ alternative name Brtha Mersinger provided by a user of the site,] in New York. The fact that someone has provided the alternative surname Mersinger might be an indication it's the one used by Beth Wills, I can't find any other Belle Rose that fits, and there aren't that many to chose from. Only trouble is, the Belle Rose living with Bertha [her cousin] was only a year older than Bertha and b c 1891.

The Belle Rose BW identifies as coming into New York from Bermuda in 1910, was born c 1872.


Thanks Chris, I couldn't make out the next column at all.

Looking back at post #66 of Jonathon's about a document sent to him by Beth Wills, where she says this about the Belle Rose finding:

Cora’s stage name was Belle Elmore. Interestingly enough, in the 1920 census in New York, we find a female with the same name as Cora’s younger half-sister Bertha Mersinger, living with a “cousin” by the name of Belle Rose. This Belle is the same age that Cora would have been in 1920, gives her occupation as a SINGER and is found entering the US through Ellis Island from Bermuda in August of 1910.

It looks like the Belle Rose 'designer' entry I found is the same one. I've posted a section so that the age of Belle Rose can be seen, nowhere near the age Cora Crippen would have been in 1920. I think maybe BW might have mistaken the numbering after the word 'head' as Belle's age when in fact her age is given further along, as 29.



The mentioning of Belle Rose doesn't alter anything of the test results, or is anything more than a bit of idle specualtion on Wills part, but it doesn't half make you question the quality of the research that these DNA experiments on family members was based on.

[Sam Flynn]

Me too. And does that say "Wholes millinery" in the next column?

I think so - "Wholes" = "Wholesale", presumably?

[Debra A]

Thanks Robert,
I may have the wrong entry, as not many details of Belle Rose were given away by Wills, other than she was living with Cora's sister in New York in 1920

The Belle Rose (designer) I found was living with a Bertha Messinger b 1892 [ alternative name Brtha Mersinger provided by a user of the site,] in New York. The fact that someone has provided the alternative surname Mersinger might be an indication it's the one used by Beth Wills, I can't find any other Belle Rose that fits, and there aren't that many to chose from. Only trouble is, the Belle Rose living with Bertha [her cousin] was only a year older than Bertha and b c 1891.

The Belle Rose BW identifies as coming into New York from Bermuda in 1910, was born c 1872.


Thanks Chris, I couldn't make out the next column at all.