Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[protohistorian]

I am not trying to be difficult. I am interested in the degree of spin put on the lab results. If we remove the issue of tracing the Mt DNA, there is still the matter of the Y chromosome. The presence of a y is rather intriguing to me. Respectfully Dave

[ghoulstonstreet]

Dr. Foran?

Or the tissue sample tested was contaminated.

Or the whole thing was a sham.

Respectfully,

JM

Sorry if I've remembered the man's name wrong since reading it last week, but in the ERROR documentary the Michigan scientist says in no uncertain terms that the tissue samples were ample enough to supply good DNA, that the gender tests were done more than once with the same MALE result and that the other tests were repeatable and replicated. I think there's no doubt but that the tissue on the slides is male. There is also no doubt that it would be extremely senseless for Crippen to get rid of the head and ALL the bones but bury incriminating flesh pieces in the cellar. Add to that the testimony of the police that the smell was atrocious and I think you have a good case for some evidence planted just days before it was dug up. As the documentary states, Dew or someone else, a forerunner of Mark Fuhrman (remember O.J.?), put the stuff in the cellar to clinch the case against Crippen, who they wanted to find guilty. Where did the body parts come from? Law Enforcement has always had access to untold sources of dead people - vagrants, morgues, funeral homes - and they obviously never figured that a time would come when gender could be established without looking at body appendages.

[ghoulstonstreet]

Thank you Menges for locating and helping us with this Crippen thread. Do you know how we can somehow view "Was Dr. Crippen Innocent?" PLUS I still don't get why Michigan State backpedaled. Please give your take on it. Thanks

[ghoulstonstreet]

Just some pics-
[ATTACH]2398[/ATTACH] Dew in the garden........

[ATTACH]2399[/ATTACH] The cellar..

[ATTACH]2400[/ATTACH] Great newspaper header....

[ATTACH]2401[/ATTACH] The 'divine' Belle Elmore'!!!! aka Cora Crippen

[ATTACH]2402[/ATTACH] Mr (aka Inspector ) Dew again ....Hmmm

I want the cute one, second from the left.

[ghoulstonstreet]

Is this Thread Alive?

I want the cute one, second from the left.

Hi. Thanks, menges for referring us to this thread. Can we assume it's now resurrected? Will my new posts show? Thanks

[ghoulstonstreet]

Ms.Mills and Theresa exhumations?

Hi Chris,

I've little doubt that Cora was a member of the Mersinger family, its that no records exist of the marriage between Mary Wolffe and Joseph Mackamotzki, nor do any birth records exist for Cora Kunegunde Mackamotzki. Solid genealogical proof that Cora is the daughter of Mary Wolffe seems to be lacking. Whether Ms. Wills ran out of resources or just failed to locate the proper records is left unsaid.

In the Notable Trial Series, the statement of Theresa Hunn reads

I am the full sister of Belle Elmore[...] My mother was twice married.

I remember on the 15th of April this year my half-sister, Mrs. Mills, getting a letter from Dr. Crippen. My half-sister brought that letter to my house.

I'll take a look at the link you provided to see this apparent discrepancy.

Thanks

JM

I would think that a better way to get foolproof Mt DNA from Cora's maternal line would be to exhume either Theresa's body (full sister) or Ms. Mills (half sister).

[ghoulstonstreet]

Hello all, Is there any way to get this thread off here and on its own so we don't have to click Crippen To Be Exhumed and then search for this interior thread every time? Seems there's some interest here - I guess we have around 7 posters. Thanks

[Debra A]

I've little doubt that Cora was a member of the Mersinger family, its that no records exist of the marriage between Mary Wolffe and Joseph Mackamotzki, nor do any birth records exist for Cora Kunegunde Mackamotzki. Solid genealogical proof that Cora is the daughter of Mary Wolffe seems to be lacking. Whether Ms. Wills ran out of resources or just failed to locate the proper records is left unsaid.

Having just read the research paper published in 'The Journal of Forensic Science' that disscusses both the DNA testing and genealogical research and gives the sources used in the genealogical research, it looks like nothing at all was found to confirm that Cora was definitely the daughter of Mary Wolffe;

*"Genealogical findings
Cora crippen (Kunegunde Mackamotzki) was born in Brooklyn, New york, in 1873, the daughter of Joseph Mackamotszki and Mary (Maria) Wolff. The date of Cora's birth was calculated from her and Dr. Crippen's marriage license in July 1892 (age 19).."
[a reproduction of the marriage license of Cora and Crippen then appears, showing a marriage date of Sept. 1 1892]
So obviously no birth record was found if they were using the marriage and census data to calculate Cora's age.

Various census extracts are also reproduced that have been mentioned on this thread. The discrepancy in the age of Mary Mersinger [supposedly Mary Wolffe] between the 1880 and 1900 census and it's possible ramifications as mentioned by jmenges and Chris way back in this thread, are not mentioned.

The rest of the genealogical research concerns the DNA participants and their relationship to Cora's sister, which looks solid enough and no one has really voiced any concerns over. It has always been the lack of evidence that Cora definitely had the same mother as her 'half sisters' [who's female descendants were the DNA participants] that has been a problem, and the published research comes up with nothing to confirm definitely that she was as far as I can see.

*The Journal of Forensic Science
CASE REPORT CRIMINALISTICS: The Conviction of Dr. Crippen: New Forensic Findings in a Century-Old Murder

David R. Foran Ph.D.1, Beth E. Wills A.D.N.2, Brianne M. Kiley M.S.3, Carrie B. Jackson M.S.3,
John H. Trestrail III B.S.4
Article first published online: 23 AUG 2010
DOI: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01532.x
© 2010 American Academy of Forensic Sciences

[jmenges]

*The Journal of Forensic Science
CASE REPORT CRIMINALISTICS: The Conviction of Dr. Crippen: New Forensic Findings in a Century-Old Murder

David R. Foran Ph.D.1, Beth E. Wills A.D.N.2, Brianne M. Kiley M.S.3, Carrie B. Jackson M.S.3,
John H. Trestrail III B.S.4
Article first published online: 23 AUG 2010
DOI: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2010.01532.x
© 2010 American Academy of Forensic Sciences

Could you provide a link to this? Google got me nowhere.

Thanks Debs,

JM

[jmenges]

Nevermind. Email received.

Thanks

JM

[jmenges]

2 quick comments on the paper. They continually describe the decendants tested as "grand-neices" and "great-grand neices" of Cora, when they were in fact grand half-nieces and great-grand half nieces, if they were related at all. Children from Mary Wolff's second marriage.

Also, they make the same mistake as they made all those years ago by pronouncing that "Based on the genealogical and molecular data presented here, only one conclusion can be drawn: the remains obtained from the Crippen's cellar at 39 Hilldrop Crescent, London, in 1910 were not those of Dr. Crippen's wife."

This is incorrect, of course. The other conclusion that can be drawn (which happens to be the right conclusion, since mtDNA is used for exclusion purposes) is that the living decendants tested are not related to the remains in the cellar. Big difference.

JM

[belinda]

jmenges How do you explain the fact that Cora tried to withdraw all the money from their bank account two weeks before she dissapeared?

What motive would she have for doing that?

[Debra A]

Belinda, out of interest, where does that information come from?

[Robert]

Hi Debs

I don't know where Belinda found that, but it seems to be mentioned on several sites. On Google, "Cora Crippen tried to withdraw money" produces the references.

[Debra A]

Hi Robert, thanks for that. I'll check out those references.
One source I did come across mentioned that Cora and Crippen had to give a customary 12months notice to withdraw their substantial joint saving and that in the December before Cora disappeared, she gave that notice to the bank.
12 months notice seems a bit excessive to get your mitts on your own cash though!