Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[jmenges]

The skin tissue that contained the scar included the flesh that reached the pubic hairs of the victim. There was no hair follicles in the scar itself, I don't believe. I'd have to check the record.

Him practicing abortion is used to account for the hyoscin, which it is claimed was used as an abortificant.

JM

[Celesta]

Wickerman and Jonathon,

I didn't mean to imply it was a fetus. Surely they would have recognized it if that were the case.

I missed the part about the pubic hair. What kind of surgery was she supposed to have had? I don't recall them specifying.

They told enough of everything to tantalize!

[Debra A]

Are there any detailed reports as to precisely what was unearthed in that basement?

These paragraphs on the remains found are taken from A text-book of medical jurisprudence and toxicology. 4th ed. Edinburgh, 1921 by John Glaister.


[the scar]
In the notorious Crippen case, the identification of the much mutilated remains of the body found buried beneath the floor of the cellar occupied by Crippen was materially assisted by the discovery of a scar on a portion of the remains. At the inquest in London in September 1910, Mr Pepper stated that one portion of the remains, measuring 11 inches by 9 inches, was from skin of the upper part of the abdominal wall, and another portion, measuring 7 inches by 6 inches, was from the lower part of the abdominal wall. On the skin of the latter portion was a mark. practically vertical in direction and a little over 4 inches in length, seven eighths of an inch wide at the bottom, half an inch in the middle, and quarter of an inch at the top. This mark was darker in tint than the surrounding skin, and showed some fine transverse lines. It was, in his opinion, from its situation and length, the mark of a scar caused by an operation. This opinion was arrived at from microscopic as well as visual examination. This view was supported by Doctors Spilsbury and Wilcox. It was proved at the trial later that the deceased woman, who was missing,
had undergone, some years prior to her disappearance, an abdominal operation of a kind likely to have produced such a scar.

[description of remains]

On the following day, Mr Pepper, continuing his evidence, stated further particulars. he said that one portion of skin measuring 11 inches by 9 inches, was from the upper part of the abdominal; another consisted of the coverings of the lower part of the back and buttocks; another from the upper part of the back; another, measuring 7 inches by 6 inches, from the lower part of the abdominal wall, on the skin of which was a mark; another, of skin, 15 inches long, with fat and muscle attached, from the hip; and another, a piece of skin with fat and muscle from the thigh. There were several other smaller pieces. There was nothing except the hair which could be identified as coming from the scalp, or from the forearms, from the leg below the knee, from the hands, or from the feet. There was no trace either of the genital organs or of bone. There was one large mass which comprised the liver, stomach, gullet, the lower 2 and a half inches of the windpipe, both lungs, the heart intact, the diaphragm, the kidneys, the pancreas, the spleen, all the small and the greater part of the large intestines. All the mass had been removed in one piece. He had no doubt at all that the remains were those of a human being. the longest portion of the hair, found in the Hinde's curler, was 8 inches, and the shortest 2 and a half inches. The colour of the hair in the curler was light brown in different shades, and showed signs of partial bleaching. The hair not in the curler was dark brown in colour. In his opinion the natural colour of the hair was dark brown. He said it was impossible from what was found to say whether they were those of male or female on anatomical grounds, as practically all signs of sex were absent, He thought, however-although his conclusion was not absoulutely reliable-that the disposition of the hair on the piece of skin from the lower part of the abdomen pointed to the sex being female. Dr. Marshall held the same views.

[also found with the remains]

Other things dug up a hinde's curler with a small piece of hair adhering to it, a small piece of hair in part of a man's handkerchief, two of the corners of which were tied in a sort of reef knot, a part of a female's undervest encrustd with hard cement like material, a pice of coarse string 15 inches long, another piece 11 inches long, two pieces of cloth, and a sheet of brown paper with bloodstains on it. The clothing then discovered consisted of part of a lady's woollen undervest and woollen combinations, and also part of a man's shirt or pyjama bearing the name Jones Bros. Holloway Road.There were no bones, simply masses of human flesh, the largest piece of which was no bigger than about 12 inches by 4 inches. Someone had carved the flesh off the bones and buried it in quicklime.


[Also noted was that the muscle of the thigh and buttock very much pointed to a female and also that one part of the remains were thought to have been part of a female breast but it could not be proven either way]

[larue]

is last night's documentary on the investigation channel the same one as has been discussed on this thread??

[Archaic]

Crippen Video: 'Executed In Error' On 'Secrets of the Dead'

Hi, everyone.

I don't think this American 'Crippen' video has been posted before; my apologies if it has.

I skimmed the last 19 pages of posts to check, and I must say, and this thread really looks fascinating... I'm definitely looking forward to giving it a much more careful reading!

This video is called 'Executed In Error' so its premise is rather apparent.
It was made by PBS (Public Television) for a series called 'Secrets of the Dead' and was originally aired in the Fall of 2008. It's 54 minutes long.

(By the way, I noticed a comment by Jon earlier saying that the American & British Crippen documentaries were very similar.)

http://video.pbs.org/video/121179706...ram/1185782726

Best regards, Archaic

[Stewart P Evans]

Willcox

From The Detective-Physician The Life and Work of Sir William Willcox 1870-1941 by Philip H. A. Willcox, London, William Heinemann Medical Books,1970 -

[Stewart P Evans]

Parry

From 'Crippen' by L. A. Parry, M.D., B.S., F.R.C.S., in Crime And Its Detection, Volume II, London, The Gresham Publishing Company, n.d. (1931), ed. by W. Teignmouth Shore -

[protohistorian]

Hi, everyone.

I don't think this American 'Crippen' video has been posted before; my apologies if it has.

I skimmed the last 19 pages of posts to check, and I must say, and this thread really looks fascinating... I'm definitely looking forward to giving it a much more careful reading!

This video is called 'Executed In Error' so its premise is rather apparent.
It was made by PBS (Public Television) for a series called 'Secrets of the Dead' and was originally aired in the Fall of 2008. It's 54 minutes long.

(By the way, I noticed a comment by Jon earlier saying that the American & British Crippen documentaries were very similar.)

http://video.pbs.org/video/121179706...ram/1185782726

Best regards, Archaic

The presence of a y chromosome surely means that the prosecution of Crippen for Cora's death was in err. Respectfully Dave

[jmenges]

Or the tissue sample tested was contaminated.

Or the whole thing was a sham.

Respectfully,

JM

[protohistorian]

well yes sir, there is that option. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

From the little I have to go on I view contamination as relatively unlikely. Even in a slide width sample, actual tested samples could be extracted from the middle of the tissue for example the dermis or sub cutis cells that would have no chance at DNA contamination. If the possibility of contamination existed in the mind of the tester, protocols exist for the abatement of that eventuality. Respectfully Dave

[KatBradshaw]

Actually from what I have heard the sample that was tested for the documentary is quite likely to be contaminated. I believe I heard this on a Rippercast so don't shoot me if I missheard.
There is a better sample however which is still heald in the archive at teh Scotland Yard Museum. This one is a proper hair sample.
One thing I have often wondered, what happened to the rest of her.

[protohistorian]

Hello Kat. It could only be contaminated externally. If the tested cells came from the interior of the sample, there could be no contamination. Think of an Oreo cookie. The contamination could only reside on the wafers. If the creamy filling is where the test cells were taken from, there can be no contamination. Respectfully Dave

[jmenges]

Skin tissue samples stand a better chance to be contaminated in the lab during mtDNA testing than hair follicle samples. Its whilst playing with the creamy filling that the contamination would have occurred.

JM

[protohistorian]

10 years ago I would have agreed wholeheartedly. Anti contamination protocols pioneered in the study of archaic DNA have all but eliminated contamination by environment within the lab and processor. It boils down to the protocol used within the lab. Respectfully Dave