Episode 64- The Real Mary Kelly with Wynne Weston-Davies

[jmenges]

Thread for discussion of...

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=110

Episode 64 welcomes Wynne Weston-Davies to the podcast to discuss in detail his new book 'The Real Mary Kelly' in which he presents his theory that Mary Jane Kelly was in fact his Great-Aunt Elizabeth Weston-Davies and her murderer could have been her estranged husband Francis Spurzheim Craig. Joining Wynne in this discussion are authors Paul Begg and Robert McLaughlin.

Hosted by Jonathan Menges

http://www.blinkpublishing.co.uk/index.php/the-real-mary-kelly/

If after listening to this podcast you would like to email questions to the author, you may direct them to administrator@casebook.org and Rippercast will forward them along. Follow-up questions and answers may be read on an upcoming episode of the 'Oh, Dear Boss' mini-podcast.

Thank you all for listening!



JM

[richardnunweek]

Hi..Jonathan,
Listened to the Podcast, in its entirety last night.and found it very interesting, the author Wynne Weston - Davies, comes across as a very nice guy.
Like the panel, I found his theory fits a lot of what is known about Kelly's life, however, although even though I tried to take a positive attitude, to what was being suggested,I found it almost impossible to forget all the facts and oral history, we have known over the years.
Paul Begg made a point about the Scots guards, which needs to be addressed, in order for that to be not applicable, we would have to not only ignore Barnett, but also Mrs McCarthy, and the oral history , about her parcelling up the victims belongings , and forwarding them to Henry[ Johnto] at his army barracks,
We also have to address, the obvious.
Why would a woman hiding from her ex husband, invite him back to her room, for at the very least heated discussions,?
Wynne dismissed Hutchinson as a hoaxer, and yet he is likely to have been, the most serious witness the police ever had, at least they initially believed that.
One negative vibe , I picked up..was the accusation that a lot of venom appears on the message boards..
This may have been the case a few years back, but generally speaking, I find the boards very respectful, and any negative/[positive views on this book, have to be addressed, prior to reading it, but preferably after reading it, and I am sure it will be addressed in the coming days /weeks.
Enjoyed the Podcast all the same, and although I express doubts on the outcome of any exhumation, I may be wrong....[ I usually am.ha]
Regards Richard.

[jmenges]

Thanks, Richard

Paul Begg made a point about the Scots guards, which needs to be addressed, in order for that to be not applicable, we would have to not only ignore Barnett, but also Mrs McCarthy, and the oral history , about her parcelling up the victims belongings , and forwarding them to Henry[ Johnto] at his army barracks,

I agree, and we did not address Fiona Kendall Lane's' claims. What we are presented with are two supposed facts only known inside-the-family and it's up to us to choose which one is the more reliable (or dismiss them both). Wynne Weston Davies states flat out that his great-uncle John Davies was called 'Johnto' and was never in the Scots guards. They can't both be right.

And we wouldn't have to ignore Barnett, as he only related what he was told.

Why would a woman hiding from her ex husband, invite him back to her room, for at the very least heated discussions,?

If you are referring to how Craig found himself inside of her room on the night of the murder, according to this theory she did not invite him in willingly. She was tricked into letting him in.

One negative vibe , I picked up..was the accusation that a lot of venom appears on the message boards..
This may have been the case a few years back, but generally speaking, I find the boards very respectful, and any negative/[positive views on this book, have to be addressed, prior to reading it, but preferably after reading it, and I am sure it will be addressed in the coming days /weeks.

Although I missed the posts where "venom" was being directed towards Wynne, it was apparent enough that both Keith Skinner and Paul Begg, independent of one another, contacted him privately and suggest he withdraw for the time being (there may have been others who did this, I don't know), and bad enough for me to be told about it privately as well.

Thanks again for your feedback and I'm really glad you enjoyed the show.

JM

[Philzilla]

Another fun show, really enjoying the new episodes.

[jmenges]

Thanks, Philzilla. We aim to please.

JM

[Jeff Leahy]

Interested to note from the podcast some cynicism about a Carmarthen boy joining the Scots Guards. I attach a photograph of a Welsh section of the Scots guards though admittedly later on.

In a recent journey to Carmarthen Museum is was also interested to note sections of a once great monument that dominated Carmarthen with a freeze of the Battle of Waterloo. So clearly Carmarthen had military connections.

I was also surprised that MJK journey was laid out very much in Welsh term without taking account of the actual geoprgraphy, travelling between North and South Wales (Carmarthen and Camarvon) being almost impossible at the time, one journey from Ireland to the north taking you to Liverpool, Manchester London. The route to the South taking you Limerick, Fishguard, Carmarthen, Cardiff London.

While I accept MJK almost certain told some exaggerations, much of her story has actually been proved correct and it just doesn't make sense to me to throw everything out of the window, when the most simple explanation (And like many prostitutes before her) MJK used a false name.

Jonto is a nickname widely used in the Carmarthen area so if you want to find the real name what you require is a catholic family in Carmarthen who match the description given by MJK… And then cross match the surnames of any potential families that fit to the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards records in Ireland…

Yours Jef

[Steadmund Brand]

Another great pod-cast thank you all so much.

Maybe I missed it if it was talked about, but if they do exhume the body, and determine it is the "Mary Kelly" we are looking for, will there be a facial reconstructionist hired as well?

again, hope I am not asking something that was already discussed....

thanks again and I can't wait for the next one

Steadmund Brand

[jmenges]

He didn't mention it and we didn't ask. If it's bankrolled by a TV channel and they do find her skull intact there's no telling what they'd do. The authors only concern seems to be ID, and if it's positive then a proper memorial service with family in attendance and re burial.

Jeff- thanks for the Scots Guard post above. Interesting.

JM

[MrBarnett]

Interested to note from the podcast some cynicism about a Carmarthen boy joining the Scots Guards. I attach a photograph of a Welsh section of the Scots guards though admittedly later on.

In a recent journey to Carmarthen Museum is was also interested to note sections of a once great monument that dominated Carmarthen with a freeze of the Battle of Waterloo. So clearly Carmarthen had military connections.

I was also surprised that MJK journey was laid out very much in Welsh term without taking account of the actual geoprgraphy, travelling between North and South Wales (Carmarthen and Camarvon) being almost impossible at the time, one journey from Ireland to the north taking you to Liverpool, Manchester London. The route to the South taking you Limerick, Fishguard, Carmarthen, Cardiff London.

While I accept MJK almost certain told some exaggerations, much of her story has actually been proved correct and it just doesn't make sense to me to throw everything out of the window, when the most simple explanation (And like many prostitutes before her) MJK used a false name.

Jonto is a nickname widely used in the Carmarthen area so if you want to find the real name what you require is a catholic family in Carmarthen who match the description given by MJK… And then cross match the surnames of any potential families that fit to the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards records in Ireland…

Yours Jef

Jef,

The Photo is of Corporal Welsh's squad. Are we sure these boys are Welsh?

Gary

[DJA]

Jonto is a nickname widely used in the Carmarthen area so if you want to find the real name what you require is a catholic family in Carmarthen who match the description given by MJK… And then cross match the surnames of any potential families that fit to the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards records in Ireland…

Yours Jef

Worth noting that between late 1885 and 1895 the 2nd Battalion was stationed in London.

They then spent two years in Dublin before returning.

The 1st battalion were stationed there in 1877/8.

[packers stem]

Thanks for the podcast, very interesting theory and just on the 'johnto' alone shouldn't be ignored
I'd love to know what sources there were for the belief that the name 'mary kelly' was commonly used by prostitutes though cos I've never come across this before...was it ever mentioned in the press at the time??

[elmore 77]

hi,Packers Stem

You might be interested in a few of the posts in a thread titled Mary Jane Kellys aliases. Its in the victims threads MJK page 19.I can't find any mention of pros being called kellys but in the bibliography of this book there are a few books on prostitution so no doubt its kosher

[packers stem]

Cheers Elmore. I'll take a look

[Paddy]

Mother Anne

I really enjoyed the podcast..

I wonder if Wynne knew that Elizabeths mother Anne looks like she moved in with a Mr David Evans after her husband died and they both lived in Mallwyd where Mr Evans was a Grocer (in 1881 census)....It doesnt look like she is working for the family he mentioned?

Pat.....

[jmenges]

Anne was the lady's maid many years prior to her first husbands death, being hired on in 1846, when Mary Cornelia was 16 years old and Anne, 19. It was Elizabeth who the author suggests took this same role shortly after the death of Anne's first husband. Wynne mentions Anne's second marriage to the local shop-keeper briefly in the podcast.

JM