Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

Actually Blackwell said that he estimated that the cut took place around 1/2 hour, perhaps as recently as 20 minutes prior to his arrival and inspection of the body. Since he checked his watch at 1:16am, then his belief translates to a cut time between 12:46 and 12:56, before 1am....the second time being approximately when Goldstein was sighted by Fanny.

Since we have evidence in the form of Fanny Mortimer that she saw no-one arrive or leave the yard between 12:50 and 1am, that means the earliest that Louis could have arrived is shortly after 1am.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the reply. Of course, Fanny Mortimer must have believed that the murder took place between 12:30 and 1:00am, during which time she claimed to be standing on her doorstep: "A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been been done whilst I was standing at the door of my house."

However, Mortimer doesn't specifically say that she saw the couple whilst standing on her doorstep, or when she spoke to them. Therefore, may have been under the misapprehension that the murder occurred earlier.

Mortimer's young couple were later interviewed. They weren't Brown's couple.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Mortimer's young couple were later interviewed. They weren't Brown's couple.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So, now there is another unknown couple that mysterious appeared and disappeared? Curious. I suppose you have some proof that a second young couple was in that area...or, since you assume a sighting of a woman without any color on her dress was actually Liz Stride who had flowers and maidernfern on her jacket..a middle aged woman with her back to the wall and a man are the second "young" couple?

[Abby Normal]

I change my opinion of Mortimer.
She does contribute something: confusion.

Lets face it she was a gossipy busy body who saw a man walk down the street carrying a bag of cigarettes. woop de doo.

[Michael W Richards]

I change my opinion of Mortimer.
She does contribute something: confusion.

Lets face it she was a gossipy busy body who saw a man walk down the street carrying a bag of cigarettes. woop de doo.

Actually his bag contained cigarette cartons, or packages, and there were cigarette makers who would need cartons still awake in the cottages in the passageway. One wonders if his intention was to bring them to the people still awake in the cottages, and the look inside the gates as he passed caused him to change his mind.

[Tom_Wescott]

Trolls who don't research and talk out of their bacon...

Sure, Michael. Whatever you say.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Mortimer's young couple were later interviewed. They weren't Brown's couple.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I've always tried where possible to disagree with american ripperologists in general.... However tough as this is.... Tom wescott pretty much gets it as it appears to me

My question would be therefore the club? Are there any connections?

OH AND Happy New year USA... Yours Jeff

[Tom_Wescott]

I've always tried where possible to disagree with american ripperologists in general.... However tough this is.... Tom wescott pretty much gets it as it appears

My question would be therefore the club? Are there any connections?

OH AND Happy New year USA... Yours Jeff

I'm pretty sure our new year is the same as yours, Jeff, and it was a couple of weeks ago. But thanks. And what about the club? Connections to what and whom?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

I'm pretty sure our new year is the same as yours, Jeff, and it was a couple of weeks ago. But thanks. And what about the club? Connections to what and whom?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

Given the direction of this thread... There has been a lot of speculation about the club and various conspiracy theories

Its good to have someone with some knowledge of this contributing...

I for one would be interested in your views on the suggested 'Club' conspiracy or cover up....?

Was it possible in the time frame...given the discovery of the body and raising of the alarm?

I'm sure many here would be interested in your opinion on a Club cover up

Yours Jef

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

Given the direction of this thread... There has been a lot of speculation about the club and various conspiracy theories

Its good to have someone with some knowledge of this contributing...

I for one would be interested in your views on the suggested 'Club' conspiracy or cover up....?

Was it possible in the time frame...given the discovery of the body and raising of the alarm?

I'm sure many here would be interested in your opinion on a Club cover up

Yours Jef

You mean Michael's theories that he derived from my original research some years ago regarding Schwartz being a member of the club? I don't know. I haven't read the thread. It's too long and there's a lot of nonsense. What I do know is that the club was in damage control. However, I do not believe any serious time lapsed between the discovery of the body and the police being notified. Maybe enough time for them to hide weapons and such, but that's it. What exactly is being alleged against the club? I also think it's possible Morris Eagle was BS Man but not Stride's murderer. And yes, I think Israel Schwartz was familiar to the club, but also that he was telling the truth about what he claimed to see. I'm not convinced of any of it though.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

You mean Michael's theories that he derived from my original research some years ago regarding Schwartz being a member of the club? I don't know. I haven't read the thread. It's too long and there's a lot of nonsense. What I do know is that the club was in damage control. However, I do not believe any serious time lapsed between the discovery of the body and the police being notified. Maybe enough time for them to hide weapons and such, but that's it. What exactly is being alleged against the club? I also think it's possible Morris Eagle was BS Man but not Stride's murderer. And yes, I think Israel Schwartz was familiar to the club, but also that he was telling the truth about what he claimed to see. I'm not convinced of any of it though.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks Tom for your input

I tend to agree with you...

I've also always been of the opinion that Strides Murder differed from the rest (And I count Smith to Kelly possibly Mckenzie)

If Stride was a Ripper murder than she was for some reason, and there could be many, a different attack

I don't think that rules her out being a ripper victim, but clearly people i admire have suggested the possibility that might be the case...

That said i've never bought conspiracy theories...

I'd be interested in your views on Schwartz?

Yours Jeff

[Tom_Wescott]

My views on Schwartz will probably be in my upcoming book. I've learned my lesson about discussing this stuff on the boards. As for the attack upon Stride, it was nearly identical to most of the other murders, except that her scarf threw a wrench in the works and for whatever reason the Ripper decided not to further mutilate her. Stride (and Eddowes, for that matter) may not have been a Ripper victim, but it's not for any of the reasons you'll find in Ripper books. Either they both were Ripper victims, or neither of them were. Take your pick.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Mortimer's young couple were later interviewed. They weren't Brown's couple.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I know it's rare Tom, but there are a few among a dying breed who would prefer to see some evidence to indicate this, one way or the other.
Care to share?

[Tom_Wescott]

I know it's rare Tom, but there are a few among a dying breed who would prefer to see some evidence to indicate this, one way or the other.
Care to share?

Wassup Wicks. See above where I mentioned the lessons I've learned. But once I dig through my vast archives and uncover my Fanny File I'll probably publish it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

A Schwartz is a Schwartz, of course, of course not...

Israel Schwartz is not a perfect witness. That much is obvious because he's still hotly debated. The truth is that there's valid reasons to believe he was completely sincere with the police, those being Abberline's comments as well as Swanson's comments when reading from Abberline's report. Likewise, there are valid reasons to doubt the veracity of his statement, namely the reports in the Star that his information was wholly accepted, the fact that - like Packer, a thoroughly discredited witness - he was not invited to give evidence at the inquest, and how months and years later Joseph Lawende was being hailed as the only man to have ever seen the Ripper. Swanson's abbreviated summary of Schwartz's statement doesn't even make it clear which side of the street Pipeman was on. It's very frustrating. The way I see it is that any interpretation of the Stride event must take on Schwartz's evidence and incorporate it, but no finality should be applied to Schwartz's evidence, i.e. deciding Stride was not a Ripper victim because you think the Ripper wouldn't have acted the way BS Man did. That's putting too much weight on Schwartz and also on the assumption that BS Man was her killer. As Swanson pointed out, he very well might not have been.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott