Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree, Mortimer's evidence does lend support to Louis' estimated arrival time of 1:00am: she goes inside shortly after seeing Goldstein, who was passing shortly before 1:00am, then about 4 minutes later she hears the pony and cart pass by.

WHAT? Fanny states that she was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am, and that she didnt go inside until after 1. Goldstein is 12:55-56am, not almost 1.

These arguments are spurious and exhausting, you want to challenge a witnesses statement...ok...PROVE it wrong, dont guess.

[John G]

LOUIS said he arrived exactly at 1am, not me.....why do I have to keep repeating this? I doubt anyones watches were synced to any public clocks except perhaps the police. The tendency to make excuses for what are obviously incompatible stories based around timings is confusing....if you want to challenge any of the facts as they appear in the records, then present evidence. Blackwell checked his watch at the time of arrival and he says it was 1:16...unless you have some evidence that he was incorrect, then I suggest you accept the time. Dont move the goal line to suit your own tastes.

Morris arrived at 12:40...why didnt he see Liz or Lave, who was at the gates at that same time? Im sure that Ill see someone make an excuse for that based on times.

Louis arrived at 1am...BY HIS OWN ACCOUNT...ok, why didnt Fanny see or hear anything on the street until 1am? Evidence please, not conjecture she couldnt tell time or her clock was broken...unless of course you can prove either of those excuses.

Israel see and hears an altercation at 12:45...since no-else sees Israel, or Pipeman, or BSM or hears any kind of altercation, and considering that he and his story are left out of the Inquest entirely, why is this accepted as a factual marker in time?

Spooner couldnt have arrived by 12:45...why?...because a single witness who no-one saw arrive says he didnt discover the body until after 1? How is that any kind of proof...its unsubstantiated by Fanny anyway. At least 3 club witness concur.

Its not just you...its many people who make their argument by surmising that people were either mistaken, or erred, or that their sick kids made it hard to tell time,.or that trees falling in unoccupied forests make no sound...its unbelievable how many arguments to posts are made based entirely on the belief system of the author, not on the evidence as it exists. All the evidence..as it reads, not how it can be manipulated based on personal preferences

-Yeah, Louis said he arrived at 1..exactly...incorrect, based on Fanny.
-Israel saw Liz....unsubstantiated and not considered as meaningful evidence in the Inquest.
-Liz is discovered by 12:45....substantiated by at least 4 witnesses.

Making excuses for evidence that doesnt agree with your own personal sensibilities is fine, this isnt a courtroom, but if it was, the excuses would need to be proven. These argumements that so and so was probably off by a few minutes, and so and so didnt have a watch......heres the bottom line...if they gave a specific time in their statement then you have to provide evidence to disprove it, not an opinion.

Anyone have evidence that Louis did arrive at exactly at 1am?
Anyone have evidence that the body was not found before 12:45?
Anyone have evidence Fanny was not at her door at any time between 12:50 and 1am?
Anyone have evidence that what Israel claimed he saw actually occurred? (opinionated notations in memos by investigators are not evidence)
Anyone have evidence that Eagle didnt step over Liz?
Anyone have evidence that Liz Strides cut estimate by Blackwell of 12:46-12:56 cannot be true?
Anyone have evidence that all the clocks and watches in this story were not within a minute or so of each other?
Anyone have evidence Liz Strides killer was interrupted?
Anyone have evidence that the members of the club did not take time to discuss what was to be done when they found the body?
Anyone have proof or evidence that Liz Stride was on the street after 12:35?
Anyone have evidence that the club was not perceived as housing undesirables by the neighbor and police before this event?
Anyone have evidence that Louis and Issac K dont attack the police a few months later in that yard without provocation?

Enough of what you believe, time for what you can prove. And I can say that without a doubt Ive used only the data sources...not my intuitive knowledge which tells me that Liz Stride was probably murdered by someone affiliated with the club between 12:40 and 12:45 in the passageway and that Israel Scwartz told a story Sunday night simply intended to misdirect the investigation and alleviate potential pressure on the club.

I haven't suggested that Dr Blackwell misread the time! I have merely pointed out that Dr Blackwell's watch may not have been synchronized with the clock referred to by Louis. Unless you are asserting that every single watch/ clock in 1888 England showed exactly the same time. If so, please provide evidence of this.

Please provide evidence that Fanny Mortimer checked the time at any stage during the period she was on her doorstep.

[John G]

WHAT? Fanny states that she was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am, and that she didnt go inside until after 1. Goldstein is 12:55-56am, not almost 1.

These arguments are spurious and exhausting, you want to challenge a witnesses statement...ok...PROVE it wrong, dont guess.

Well if Fanny did go inside at exactly 1:00, and heard Louis' pony and cart approach about 4 minutes later, as she claimed, then that would mean that Louis arrived at roughly the same time as PC Lamb!

[Joshua Rogan]

Don't be silly John, PC Lamb was there at 12:40 according to Spooner, 12:45 by Heshberg.

[Joshua Rogan]

Found this interesting report;

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

[John G]

Don't be silly John, PC Lamb was there at 12:40 according to Spooner, 12:45 by Heshberg.

Oh yes, sorry I'd forgot. Silly me!

For Michael's benefit I'll explain again the possible importance of time synchronization. Let us say that when Louis arrives at 1:00am, as timed by the clock, Dr Blackwell's watch is showing 12:58, because the two timepieces are not completely synchronized. According to Louis it took about 7 minutes for the first police officer to arrive, although Gavin's detailed analysis suggests between 4.5 and 7.5 minutes.

So, let us say PC Lamb arrives 7 minutes after Louis discovered the body. The time is now 1:07 according to the clock, but only 1:05 according to Dr Blackwell's watch. Dr Blackwell arrived, say, 11 minutes later (PC Lamb estimated his arrival to be 10-12 minutes after his own). The time is now 1:18 according to the clock, but 1:16 according to Dr Blackwell's watch. Voila!

[Jeff Leahy]

Surely its simply more simple if Fanny7 goes inside before 1am..and her 4 min estimate is like her ten minute estimate...simply a figure of speech?

Thus she heres the cart as she says and Deimschutz discovers the body as he says at 1 am

That make the most sense surely?

Yours jeff

[c.d.]

Fanny stated that she was at her door from 12:50 until 1:00...but you think that isnt correct I assume. Thats fine cd...but the fact remains she said she was there at that time, and her sighting of Goldstein endorses her statement. I dont know why the convention is to dismiss witness statements that dont sit well with the reader personally.

Hello Michael,

But Fanny did not appear at the inquest and we all know what that means do we not or does that only apply to certain witnesses?

It seems selectivity works both ways.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"Fanny Mortimer may have had only a couple of clocks in the home, one say in the kitchen, one in the bedroom. She wouldn't have been rushing in consulting them every few seconds and could well have been checking on her husband and kids periodically."

Yep, what Rosella said.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

Just because the club members might have had a reason to concoct a story is not evidence that they did so.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"Just because the club members might have had a reason to concoct a story is not evidence that they did so."

I guess I'll just go ahead and change that to read does anybody have any EVIDENCE that the club members concocted a story as that seems to be the phrase of the day.

c.d.

[Joshua Rogan]

I find it difficult to believe in a conspiracy between club members who would give a false time for the discovery of a murder, despite knowing that the police were already at the murder scene before that time because they themselves had summoned them.

[Jeff Leahy]

I guess I'll just go ahead and change that to read does anybody have any EVIDENCE that the club members concocted a story as that seems to be the phrase of the day.

c.d.

Hi CD and Happy New Year

Like you , while I can see a possible motive...

My question to those that propose this theory is 'how quickly could their deception have taken place?'

It seems to me it would have been difficult to contain. The first reaction was shock and panic...peoplke running in all direction shouting murder and calling for police!

Once the word was on the street the gossip would have spread like wild fire from door to door, confusion, exaggeration, leather apron has struck again

Frankly i feel it would have been to far out of control for the club to spin a different version of the truth.....and if they did they certainly got very lucky with their invented story as they could not have known while inventing it the other witness testimonies

Yours Jeff

[John G]

I think a conspiracy theory would have more credence if it wasn't for the fact that there are perfectly plausible explanations for the issues that have been raised.

For example, PC Lamb stating that the time was 1:00am when he was alerted, when it transpires he had no watch. And what of the evidence of Heshburg, who was supposedly notified of the murder at 12:45. Well, let's consider exactly what he was quoted as saying in the the Daily News: "It was about a quarter to one, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter." (The emphasis is mine.)

Of course, the reference to the whistle implies that the police had already been alerted at this time, and as even Michael isn't disputing that this wouldn't have been before 1:00am, I think we can safely assume that his timing estimate was out by at least a quarter of an hour.

Edward Spooned? He estimated his arrival at the murder scene as being about 12:35. However, did he refer to a watch? No, his estimate was based upon the closing times if the local pubs!

[John G]

Of course that should be Edward Spooner. Predictive text issue, must figure out how to turn it off!