Schwartz v. Lawende

[John G]

Actually Issac took note of the time as he returned to the club "at half past 12", then he says about 10 minutes later Louis called him to the passageway. I find it interesting that some witnesses are assumed to be off in their time by a few minutes, but also that Issac K, Heschberg and Gillen were off by almost a half hour.

Of course, Issac wasn't called to the inquest, so didn't give evidence under oath, therefore I think we need to exercise caution when considering statements attributed to him, particularly as his English was poor. In fact, one newspaper account quotes him as saying that Louis called him to the yard at "about twenty to one." So he was clearly just estimating the time.

[Michael W Richards]

Of course, Issac wasn't called to the inquest, so didn't give evidence under oath, therefore I think we need to exercise caution when considering statements attributed to him, particularly as his English was poor. In fact, one newspaper account quotes him as saying that Louis called him to the yard at "about twenty to one." So he was clearly just estimating the time.

The interview I take Issac's comments from took place at the murder scene within 1 hour of the bodys discovery, and the newspaper account that quotes him, (as you note above), is consistent with what Ive been quoting from him. His estimate is based upon arriving back at the club and the length of time that transpired from that arrival to Louis's summons....within 1 1/2 hours from the time Strides body was discovered.

You see John, Issac isn't incorrect unless you assume that Louis Diemshits is the only witness that was being accurate and truthful. When in fact 4 people including Isaac stated that their notification of the body took place between 12:40 and 12:45...and just 1 person said it was discovered at 1am when he arrived at the passageway,...a claim that is directly refuted by Fannys observations from 12:50 until 1am, a period of time where she did not see or hear any cart arrive.

I hear it already...well, maybe Louis was off a few minutes. Ok then, lets forget he said he arrived exactly at 1, which is in fact what he said. Then take all he said occurred and have it all take place after 1:02-1:03 and end before 1:16am, when we have a watch onsite. Oh, and throw in the fact that Issac Kozebrodski says that at around 12:40 when Louis called him he also sent him out alone for help...a factoid missing from Louis or any other club affiliate in their statement. We know of only 2 rescue missions...Louis and Eagle.

As you can see Louis can already be shown to have concealed or omitted Issac being sent out, (surely he didn't forget that he did that in just an hour), and that Louis was incorrect or lied about arriving at "exactly" 1am.

Why back a statement that is provably false in favour of 5 that happily match each other in timing.

For the life of me I don't know why people look at these details with blinders on...it is not a fact that Louis arrived at 1 or thereabouts, in fact no-one saw him, its not a fact that the initial discovery was after 1am, its a story based on Louis's statement, which is provably incorrect and incomplete in parts. Its not a fact that Israel Schwartz saw anything or that he was even there when he said he was, we have only his word for that. Its not a fact that there was any BSM there, or Pipeman, or that Liz Stride was outside the gates at 12:45. These are details that are simply in Israels story...which also is not part of any Inquest.

No corroboration for Louis, none for Eagle, none for Israel, and 4 witnesses corroborate Issac and his timing, including 1 outside witness. Why on earth would I assume everyone else is wrong but the 3 people that have zero corroboration in any other witness statement, and the 3 people with the most to lose if an investigation points towards the club?

[Joshua Rogan]

...how is it that Blackwell can be woken and alerted to the event, get out of bed, dressed, and carriage ride down to the passageway by 1:16am?.

I think you are overestimating the distances involved...
Wasn't Blackwell's practise at 100 Commercial Road, which is on the corner with Batty Street, about 150 yards away from the club. No need for a cab, that's a 2 minute stroll or 1 minute jog. If he was alerted at 01:10 that still leaves him 3-4 minutes of dressing time before arriving at 01:16, 3-4 minutes behind his assistant Johnston, who left straight away.

[Jeff Leahy]

I think you are overestimating the distances involved...
Wasn't Blackwell's practise at 100 Commercial Road, which is on the corner with Batty Street, about 150 yards away from the club. No need for a cab, that's a 2 minute stroll or 1 minute jog. If he was alerted at 01:10 that still leaves him 3-4 minutes of dressing time before arriving at 01:16, 3-4 minutes behind his assistant Johnston, who left straight away.

Hi Joshua

I've never been clear on exactly where Blackwell started his journey

If it was as close as you claim then the timings are pretty good..

If anyone has some maps here it would be most helpful to the discussion

Yours Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Hopefully this link will take you to the Goad map for the Berner Street area.

http://britishlibrary.georeferencer.com/map/yjj59GgqaXIj8paEHPF2GM/201312091325-ahV4iU/visualize

If not, googlemaps is your friend - the house numbers are still the same, although Berner is now Henriques Street.

[John G]

In Gavin's dissertation he refers to Dr Blackwell's evidence as being in Commercial Road. He estimates it was about 50 metres from the end of Berner Steet

[Joshua Rogan]

Yep, that's what I made it too. And the club was about 100 yards down from Commercial Road.

[Jeff Leahy]

Many thanks for that information and the map connection..

The corner of Batty Street would take none than 2 minutes to walk to Dutfield yard....Actually its surprising Blackwell wasn't there sooner

But I guess he had to dress

Yours Jeff

[John G]

I've just checked the inquest details and Dr Blackwell confirmed that he resided at "No. 100, Commercial Road." He stated that it was ten minutes past one o'clock when he was "called to Berner Street by a policeman."

He further stated that his assistant, Mr Johnston, went back with the constable and he followed once he was dressed. I believe Edward Johnston said that he arrived at the crime scene about 3 or 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so probably around 1:12- 1:13, or 2 to 3 minutes after the constable arrived. Of course, he wouldn't have left immediately, as there would obviously be some delay, i.e. for Dr Blackwell to discuss matters with the constable, to have alerted his assistant, and for Johnston himself to have dressed.

By the way in my previous post I, of course, meant to write "residence", not "evidence"! Another predictive text issue-I must work out how to switch the thing off!

[Michael W Richards]

Fair points on the proximity of Blackwells residence to the murder scene, it likely wouldn't have taken long by foot. That being said, if we have Louis arriving after 1am, because Fanny did not see anyone approach 10 minutes before or at 1am, then he arrives at around 1:02 or :03 at the earliest...allowing for the distance he would have had to traverse where Fanny would have been able to see and hear him, then he gets down to see what the trouble is at around 1:03. He lights a match, dashes indoors to check on his missus,...at which point he briefs her on what he has seen, then he summons men from upstairs to join him in the passageway. Its now 1:06-1:08..conservatively. They decide to send out for help, according to Issac K Louis sends him out alone...then Louis heads out with Issac[s] and Eagle head in the other direction. Louis and Issacs get as far as Grove Street...(keep an eye on the running clock, and the fact that no-one has sent for Blackwell yet),...at what, 1:10 ish? They meet Spooner on the way back, and Isaac K sees Eagle returning with Lamb. Its around 1:12 now. Blackwell checks his watch at 1:16am. It seems that a rough run through of the timing shows that no-one would have even been sent to wake him, so he could put on his watch, by 1:12.

Now, if one uses the witnesses that I suggest, the 5 that corroborate each others times, then you have plenty of time for everything to transpire before Blackwell arrives at 1:16 sharp. Including indecision.

[Joshua Rogan]

Which 5 witnesses do you mean? Because I'm having a hard time making any of them match up!

[Joshua Rogan]

Has anyone got any info on Charles Letchford? He was apparently the resident of 30 Berner Street. He is quoted as saying "My sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one but did not see anyone pass by"

I was wondering if this could be Fanny Mortimer, as he doesn't actually say his sister lives with him at no. 30. If not, perhaps they were neighbours and having a natter - there's got to be some reason they were both standing at their doors at that time of night.

[John G]

Fair points on the proximity of Blackwells residence to the murder scene, it likely wouldn't have taken long by foot. That being said, if we have Louis arriving after 1am, because Fanny did not see anyone approach 10 minutes before or at 1am, then he arrives at around 1:02 or :03 at the earliest...allowing for the distance he would have had to traverse where Fanny would have been able to see and hear him, then he gets down to see what the trouble is at around 1:03. He lights a match, dashes indoors to check on his missus,...at which point he briefs her on what he has seen, then he summons men from upstairs to join him in the passageway. Its now 1:06-1:08..conservatively. They decide to send out for help, according to Issac K Louis sends him out alone...then Louis heads out with Issac[s] and Eagle head in the other direction. Louis and Issacs get as far as Grove Street...(keep an eye on the running clock, and the fact that no-one has sent for Blackwell yet),...at what, 1:10 ish? They meet Spooner on the way back, and Isaac K sees Eagle returning with Lamb. Its around 1:12 now. Blackwell checks his watch at 1:16am. It seems that a rough run through of the timing shows that no-one would have even been sent to wake him, so he could put on his watch, by 1:12.

Now, if one uses the witnesses that I suggest, the 5 that corroborate each others times, then you have plenty of time for everything to transpire before Blackwell arrives at 1:16 sharp. Including indecision.

But, as I've noted before, Mortimer is not a reliable witness. She was not called to give evidence at the inquest, was only estimating timings, and there are conflicting newspaper accounts of what she said. It is therefore perfectly plausible that Louis discovered the body at around 1:00am.

[Michael W Richards]

Which 5 witnesses do you mean? Because I'm having a hard time making any of them match up!

PC Lamb, Issac Kozebrodksi, Abraham Heschberg, a club member only identified as Giller or Giilen, and Edward Spooner, whose story puts him in the passageway with the aforementioned witnesses before 12:45am.

[Michael W Richards]

But, as I've noted before, Mortimer is not a reliable witness. She was not called to give evidence at the inquest, was only estimating timings, and there are conflicting newspaper accounts of what she said. It is therefore perfectly plausible that Louis discovered the body at around 1:00am.

However, as you've apparently dismissed, Fanny Mortimers statement about where she was between 12:50 and 1am is validated by her sighting of Goldstein, who didn't come forward until Tuesday night. Have you ever heard a heavy cart and horseshoes on cobblestones? Are you aware how visible and audible that would be as it approached on a deserted street? What time would Diemshitz have had to make his turn onto Berner Street to enter the gates at the time he said, without a full gallop ...12:56ish? Fanny was at her door then. We have proof of that in the form of Leon Goldstein.

12:56....That is also within the approximate estimated time of Liz Strides single cut as well. By Blackwell that is. By Phillips, maybe 20-25 minutes earlier than that.