Schwartz v. Lawende

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think its possible that they werent being tested about their loyalty to one another, but more tangibly by the threat of income, and perhaps housing loss. Do they protect the club from potential catastrophic consequences if the general public decides that these Jewish Immigrants were the likely culprits? The mere fact that Israels altercation takes place off the property..when in all probability the truth is she was on the property and never left it after Smith left, leaves open the question of whether he is actually recounting a personal experience or placing a prime suspect off site.

You're right, it's not just about personal loyalties. The threat to the club of one of their own becoming a suspect is not insignificant.

Stride's location post-Smith's witnessing of her could arguably come down to Eagle's whereabouts. If Morris arrived back earlier than he supposed, Stride and her current companion may be yet to arrive. On the other hand, how could Eagle have missed seeing Stride, unless she had gone deeper into the yard?

[GBinOz]

Ive been remiss not discussing the other witness of this thread, Lawende. Am I missing something here...he said within 2 weeks that he doubted if he could identify the man again, he said so at the Inquest, ...yet he is sequestered at their expense, his suspect description is used a few times by different investigators and papers, he is probably the man they called in to try and ID Grant in 1895, and he is rumoured to be Andersons so called Seaside Home reluctant witness.....all this attention, for what? He couldnt ID the man again...he said so....so why would they continues to haul him out for ID's or use his suspect description?

Curiously, the Pall Mall Gazette dated 7 May 1895 reported that Grainger had been unhesitatingly identified by the one person whom the police believe saw the murderer with a woman a few moments before her mutilated body was found.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Eagle does not refer to a watch or the club clock, but his times are estimates - he returned to the club "about" 12:40, he thinks he had been singing in the club 20 minutes, we might ask how was he so sure of the time? Without reference to a timepiece we must assume this was another estimate.

Times version of the Inquest, Eagle the witness:

Witness. - I think the policeman touched it, but the other persons appeared afraid to go near it. When I first saw the body of deceased, I should say it was about 1 o'clock, although I did not look at the clock.

He refers to a clock in the Club that he didn't look at. His times were pure estimates based on an uncertain starting point

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

No need to take my word for it... You can Google it.

Yaffa is a feminine name of Hebrew origin well-suited for the flower bud ready to bloom. With the graceful meaning of “beautiful,” baby Yaffa can bask in compliments whenever their name is mentioned. Yaffa is also an African surname whose meaning remains a mystery for now.Jan 18, 2024

A few months ago I highlighted that the name 'Yaffa' when used as a forename, is a girl's name meaning Beautiful, the equivalent of the name Bella.

However, as a surname, it applies to both male and female, so the individual named Yaffa, could have been either.

I would assume that Yaffa was a man. just with a feminine surname.


RD

[Michael W Richards]

Wick,...

Agreed, you didn't suggest a member, but you suggested he may have been at the club, like the members.
I'm suggesting the police had to concern themselves with the patrons, or attendees, of the club (as 'members' seems to be too specific).
So, the police had to investigate all those who were known to have been at the club, both members & guests.
Other's have suggested the killer was a club member, I don't think they were making a distinction between members & guests. They mean someone who attended the club as opposed to a stranger passing the yard & killing the woman.

The only men anywhere near the scene of the murder at the time it occurs....setting Israel aside...are men from that club. Attendees, members, employees, first time meeting attendees...and perhaps some hired security. Ive suggested many times that without Israel, we can dramatically narrow the potential suspects list...because the killer didnt just spontaneously materialize. Men said the passageway was empty, witnesses said the street was deserted that last half hour..at least after 12:35. Thats why I say the ONLY men anywhere near that murder site were club attendees.


Yes, but why invent someone who no-one has spoke about?
Liz was already with Parcel-man - why invent a third 'unknown' person?
We have not even established if Parcel-man left the scene before the attack. The police leaned towards the obvious, that he was still there which is why they made him a suspect.

If he is carrying the most recent printing of the Arbeter Fraint, whose size matches his parcel description, then Liz was seeing him as he left. Assuming he was still there when no-one saw him after 12:35 isnt investigating, its guessing, and police generally dont play that game. There are witnesses to the street after Smith, ....Eagle, Lave, Fanny, the young couple......they saw no-one.

Fair enough, but how can you say he "sure weren't in the yard", when that yard extends deep into the darkness past the print office and around the back of the club? Are you stating he sure was not back there with Liz? What makes you so sure?

For one, she would only be back there with someone if she is soliciting, which its fairly clear to all that have been paying any attention, she isnt. Street women dont arrive at a location on a deserted street an hour after almost everyone has gone home already, they dont use cashous, they dont have flowers pinned to their jacket, wear their good evening wear, ask to borrow a lint brush to tidy her skirt......or be seen with multilple men prior and not seen "doing business" with any of them.

Liz had no reason to be deep on the property, particularly if she intended to go into it via the side door to clean.

Or, perhaps Morris Eagle had his time wrong?
Which sounds like the simplest solution to me.

I am always saddened when people with decent intelligence believe that "the simplest solution" is to just disregard what the witness actually said the time was.

Eagle does not refer to a watch or the club clock, but his times are estimates - he returned to the club "about" 12:40, he thinks he had been singing in the club 20 minutes, we might ask how was he so sure of the time? Without reference to a timepiece we must assume this was another estimate.

Wrong, a club like that would have a prominently displayed clock. Its likely the same one that was also used by Issac K and Heschberg...both who said they were alerted to the body around 12:40, ....Spooner suggested 12:35, but maybe it was closer to 12:40...he definitely wasnt near a clock.

Eagle also admits there could have been people in the street he just cannot recollect them.

And Eagle also couldnt be sure that a body was NOT there when he returned to the club. So.....using your logic, perhaps there was a body there at 12:40 and he couldnt "recollect" it?..or chose not to recollect it?

So, maybe Eagle came back and entered the side door of the club before Liz & Parcel-man entered the yard from the street?

Then how come Eagle didnt see them in the street, why didnt Lave see them....Parcel man exited.

Parcel Man is nothing more than a fleeting distraction, little more than reference point in time for Liz's whereabouts. And if Israel was not being truthful, then again, the men at the club at that time are the only suspect pool at the time the murder is committed.

[Wickerman]

Her being in the back of the yard with a man sounds at least as plausible as her standing alone in the gateway, unnoticed by club attendees or neighbours. In at least one hand she was found to be holding edibles, of the sort that might be found in a costermonger's cart. There is evidence that carts were kept in the yard.

Krantz: I work in a room forming part of the printing office at the back of the International Working Men's Club. Last Saturday night I was in my room from nine o'clock until one of the members of the club came and told me that there was a woman lying in the yard.

One might reasonably suppose from that, that Krantz was working alone at the time, but seemingly not ...

Arbeter Fraint: ... Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard. There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.

Who's Yaffa?

No need to take my word for it... You can Google it.

Yaffa is a feminine name of Hebrew origin well-suited for the flower bud ready to bloom. With the graceful meaning of “beautiful,” baby Yaffa can bask in compliments whenever their name is mentioned. Yaffa is also an African surname whose meaning remains a mystery for now.Jan 18, 2024

[Michael W Richards]

Ive been remiss not discussing the other witness of this thread, Lawende. Am I missing something here...he said within 2 weeks that he doubted if he could identify the man again, he said so at the Inquest, ...yet he is sequestered at their expense, his suspect description is used a few times by different investigators and papers, he is probably the man they called in to try and ID Grant in 1895, and he is rumoured to be Andersons so called Seaside Home reluctant witness.....all this attention, for what? He couldnt ID the man again...he said so....so why would they continues to haul him out for ID's or use his suspect description?

Thats not the only thing Im troubled about with Lawende, its that IF the 3 men did see Kate, then the time left before Watkins finds her is very short. To cut around a navel? Mark the face? Cut into the colon accidentally? Rip and cut the apron section....all that he did to her, and add the time he had to get her into the square and do all those things then get out before Watkins enters..the total time available is from approx 12:35 to approx 12:43-44. It would imply that all the knife work, the kidney-partial uterus extraction, all of it...took no more than 5-6 minutes. Chapmans injuries could have been accomplished by someone trained and knowledgeable, albeit hastily, within 15 minutes according to the medical remarks, so, is it reasonable that Kates could have been done.. in a much darker location.. in 1/3 of that time?

[Michael W Richards]

No, it isn't. Loyalty in this case would consist of having heaving qualms, in deciding to protect a comrade.

I think its possible that they werent being tested about their loyalty to one another, but more tangibly by the threat of income, and perhaps housing loss. Do they protect the club from potential catastrophic consequences if the general public decides that these Jewish Immigrants were the likely culprits? The mere fact that Israels altercation takes place off the property..when in all probability the truth is she was on the property and never left it after Smith left, leaves open the question of whether he is actually recounting a personal experience or placing a prime suspect off site.

Its probable that he knew Wess, he was in essence just the same as any man still in attendance there, poor...jewish, immigrant....yet he claims to not have been at the club with the kind of men he would generally associate with, an element of antisemitism... although unclear as to whom it was directed, a physical interaction that suggests Liz is being assaulted at the time....its too convenient and too much exactly what they needed for my liking.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So are we to believe that club members (who had mothers, sisters, daughters) had no qualms whatsoever about covering up for a fellow club member who had just brutally cut the throat of a woman? Now that is loyalty.

c.d.

No, it isn't. Loyalty in this case would consist of having heaving qualms, in deciding to protect a comrade.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fair enough, but how can you say he "sure weren't in the yard", when that yard extends deep into the darkness past the print office and around the back of the club?
Are you stating he sure was not back there with Liz?
What makes you so sure?

Her being in the back of the yard with a man sounds at least as plausible as her standing alone in the gateway, unnoticed by club attendees or neighbours. In at least one hand she was found to be holding edibles, of the sort that might be found in a costermonger's cart. There is evidence that carts were kept in the yard.

Krantz: I work in a room forming part of the printing office at the back of the International Working Men's Club. Last Saturday night I was in my room from nine o'clock until one of the members of the club came and told me that there was a woman lying in the yard.

One might reasonably suppose from that, that Krantz was working alone at the time, but seemingly not ...

Arbeter Fraint: ... Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard. There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.

Who's Yaffa?

[Wickerman]

Wick why is it a casual accusation please ? I never said someone in the club killed Liz that night [ or who was in the yard ], but it has to be a possibility. You say yourself - The police had to have already considered the possibility and after detaining & interrogating all the remaining members, they were satisfied none were to be suspected.

Agreed, you didn't suggest a member, but you suggested he may have been at the club, like the members.
I'm suggesting the police had to concern themselves with the patrons, or attendees, of the club (as 'members' seems to be too specific).
So, the police had to investigate all those who were known to have been at the club, both members & guests.
Other's have suggested the killer was a club member, I don't think they were making a distinction between members & guests. They mean someone who attended the club as opposed to a stranger passing the yard & killing the woman.

I have said myself that Liz could have stopped a punter [ Jack ], as he was passing down the street who followed her into the yard before quickly killing her.

Yes, but why invent someone who no-one has spoke about?
Liz was already with Parcel-man - why invent a third 'unknown' person?
We have not even established if Parcel-man left the scene before the attack. The police leaned towards the obvious, that he was still there which is why they made him a suspect.

So if PC Smith did see Jack , and yes the police allowed for the possibility , were was he and Liz after 12/30 am or 12/35 am [ his testimony ] . Because he sure weren't in the yard at 12/40 as per Morris Eagle or on the street or he would have said so. And what if Jack saw PC Smith which is likely , would he then go on to kill Liz knowing he had been spotted by a copper , not for me.

Fair enough, but how can you say he "sure weren't in the yard", when that yard extends deep into the darkness past the print office and around the back of the club?
Are you stating he sure was not back there with Liz?
What makes you so sure?

Or, perhaps Morris Eagle had his time wrong?
Which sounds like the simplest solution to me.

Eagle does not refer to a watch or the club clock, but his times are estimates - he returned to the club "about" 12:40, he thinks he had been singing in the club 20 minutes, we might ask how was he so sure of the time? Without reference to a timepiece we must assume this was another estimate.
Eagle also admits there could have been people in the street he just cannot recollect them.
So, maybe Eagle came back and entered the side door of the club before Liz & Parcel-man entered the yard from the street?

[c.d.]

And I will add that I hope they are now at peace.

c.d.

[c.d.]

A good post and one with which I agree. They should not have had to endure what they did.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok. Thanks.

c.d.

I suppose ultimately its Stride that I pity the most, because her sad ending wouldnt have made much public noise as just another street murder. She had the double misfortune of being murdered and also being immortalized as a victim of Jack the Ripper. Her hard life constantly peeled open by JtR researchers and students looking for clues. She didnt get any "Rest in Peace". I realize that none of the others did either, but the fact that some or all of them had the great misfortune of actually being killed by Jack the Ripper, ... that infamous killers association strips them of any anonymity they might have acquired with time after their deaths.

Its why I hope to make some inroads one day on whether Liz Stride should be left alone and no longer a subject of scrutiny.

[c.d.]

Ok. Thanks.

c.d.