Schwartz v. Lawende

[Lewis C]

George,
I mean sexist for this time, not that time. Pipeman runs off in fear, but Stride is gullible enough to go into the darkness with a man who just threw her down. Smart man, dumb woman.

In this particular theory, the man who threw her down isn't the same man that she went into the darkness with.

[GBinOz]

I see a bit of shelter from rain, but very little from wind.

As a pipe smoker, I can comment that your body, the door and the return would provide adequate shelter from the wind.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, just sheltering out of the wind in the doorway to light his pipe.

I see a bit of shelter from rain, but very little from wind.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Swanson's report states:

The Police apparently do not suspect the 2nd man whom Schwartz saw on the other side of the street and who followed Schwartz.

The first man was on the club side of the street. The second man was on the other side of the street. Following Schwartz would require him to begin from a position north of Schwartz. Hampshire Court's Berner St entrance was on the other side of the street, to the north of the board school, and had no closing time.

[GBinOz]

So, JtR had just finished having an after-hours drink with the licensee of the Nelson?

No, just sheltering out of the wind in the doorway to light his pipe.

[GBinOz]

Where is this quote from Wess that he follows anyone, he says at the Inquest he started to leave at 12:15 and first went into the yard. Then he and his brother left via the front door.......(question: did someone then lock it before Eagle shows up?). I havent seen, or recall, seeing that Wess chases anyone. If he left at 12:30 and the Pipeman sighting isnt until 12:45...?

Are people basing this on a quote attributed to the club secretary.. "The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

Ive seen it referred to as "Wess chases" before here, although not in your quote above, just making sure that something erroneous isnt taking hold.

Hi Michael,

I was referring to the report in the Echo 1 Oct:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

Cheers, George

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Andrew,

I don't see it as sexist, particularly for that time.

Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.

Cheers, George

Where is this quote from Wess that he follows anyone, he says at the Inquest he started to leave at 12:15 and first went into the yard. Then he and his brother left via the front door.......(question: did someone then lock it before Eagle shows up?). I havent seen, or recall, seeing that Wess chases anyone. If he left at 12:30 and the Pipeman sighting isnt until 12:45...?

Are people basing this on a quote attributed to the club secretary.. "The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

Ive seen it referred to as "Wess chases" before here, although not in your quote above, just making sure that something erroneous isnt taking hold.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.

Forgot to ask, how did Wess learn of Parcelman's name, but seemingly not the police?

The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

There is no indication in any police report that they learned the identity of a man who pursued anyone, but according to your theory, they should have suspected the second man. Swanson's report states:

The Police apparently do not suspect the 2nd man whom Schwartz saw on the other side of the street and who followed Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

I don't see it as sexist, particularly for that time.

George,
I mean sexist for this time, not that time. Pipeman runs off in fear, but Stride is gullible enough to go into the darkness with a man who just threw her down. Smart man, dumb woman.

One may reasonably suggest that Pipeman ran in the direction of Schwartz, because Schwartz ("the intruder") was his target, but that means admitting to oneself that the two men were likely known to each other. That would play havoc with some mental models of JtR.

Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.

Cheers, George

So, JtR had just finished having an after-hours drink with the licensee of the Nelson?

[Lewis C]

Are you hinting at Michael Kidney?

I think that if BS man killed Stride, he most likely was JtR, in which case the motive was probably the same as what it usually was for him.

[GBinOz]

While two men run off in fear, the damsel in distress is enticed by the promise of a hot cup of tea inside the club, by a man who'd been standing on the street with nothing more than a pipe to hide his identity.

Some see this as plausible scenario, but I wonder if others might think it just a bit sexist?

Hi Andrew,

I don't see it as sexist, particularly for that time.

Schwartz runs away after Pipeman takes a few paces towards him. Schwartz reported to The Star that Pipeman had shouted a warning "to" BSMan, but was it "at" BSMan (leave that woman be you #*&%)? Pipeman proceeds towards the couple and BSMan thinks better of taking on a larger opponent and departs. A shaken Stride accepts an offer to be escorted to the safety of the Club and Jack (Pipeman) seizes on the opportunity, but is interrupted by Parcelman returning from the Loo. There follows a pursuit, as reported by Wess.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I shouldn't have said "came along", because it could be that he was already in the area, but then went to her after he saw her thrown down.

While two men run off in fear, the damsel in distress is enticed by the promise of a hot cup of tea inside the club, by a man who'd been standing on the street with nothing more than a pipe to hide his identity.

Some see this as plausible scenario, but I wonder if others might think it just a bit sexist?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would say that it's enough of a stretch that I would think it not especially likely, but not so much of a stretch that I would reject it entirely as a possibility.

I'm roughly the same, but it would be nice to know more about Yaffa.

As for BS man, I would say that if he existed, and I think he probably did, it's more likely that either he didn't kill Stride, or he killed her for some other reason than the motive that you mentioned.

Are you hinting at Michael Kidney?

The estimate given by the paper may have just been a rough estimate. It couldn't have been too far from 12:45.

Schwartz, Wess, and Arbeter Fraint all mentioned ~12:45. I doubt this is just coincidence.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

...my personal view is that Schwartz simply witnessed a street hassle and that Jack came along after he left and that Stride voluntarily went with him back into the yard where he killed her.

So, to round out your theory a bit, Stride stands at the gateway for some unknown period, then the BS man comes along and roughs her up. He goes off in a huff, and Stride picks herself up before continuing to stand at the gates. Then, almost as suddenly, JtR comes along and somehow entices her to go into the darkness of Dutfield's Yard. Almost immediately he kills her, before being interrupted by something, and he too leaves the scene. All the while that Stride stood at the gates, she went unwitnessed by club attendees and neighbours.

Is that about right?

Can I account for all facts? No, but I have never seen a scenario that does. By the way, you seem very reluctant to put forth your own version of events but instead seem to prefer tearing down what others post. Is there a reason for that?

Very recently I put forward the theory that Yaffa killed Stride, with (possibly inadvertent) help from Phillip Krantz. Did you notice? I'm also the first, as far as I know, to put forward the theory that Israel Schwartz and Leon Goldstein were one and the same man - possibly the boldest new Ripper-related theory since Lechmere/Cross. Feel free to critique either theory in whatever style you deem appropriate.

[Lewis C]

The Just-in-Time-Jack consoles damsel in distress theory is a bit too Hollywood for my liking.

I shouldn't have said "came along", because it could be that he was already in the area, but then went to her after he saw her thrown down.