Schwartz v. Lawende

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



The problem for me with B&G getting their description wrong of the Bricklayer`s Arms Man is that there were two of them (they both somehow agreed on the man`s description) and they also had a good, long look at the man, close up.
But, this sighting was at 11am, and Marshall saw Stride at 11.45, which isn`t much time between them, considering Stride had to the biz with Bricklayer Arms man, then pick up Marshall`s man and be wandering down Berner St by 11.45. Possible of course but I do struggle with the difference between a peaked cap and a billycock hat.



Personally, I`d say it was more likely she approached the men on the street.
But yes, I`ll admit she was possibly seen leaving a pub with a man.
Yes, I get the same feeling about the man trying to get her into a secluded area.
I don`t like the way Marshall`s man had his arm wrapped around her neck when they were walking together, very possessive.



They did identify her at the mortuary and they did get a good look at her alive.
I think it was Stride with a different man to peak capped man

Thanks Jon
That's a distinct possibility now that I think of it.

don`t like the way Marshall`s man had his arm wrapped around her neck when they were walking together, very possessive.

Yes-very possessive indeed-ominous too-"youd say anything but your prayers" more on that below.

I could see this type of man losing his temper when he doesn't get his way-as in stride refusing to go into an alley way with him.

Theres no doubt in my mind that marshals man was BS man and strides killer.


another reason that B&G might have seen stride (and/or her killer) is that during their encounter they say to stride-"that's leather apron getting round you."


So later I could envision a conversation between stride and marshalls man going something like this:

Stride: (half joking) Your not Leathor Apron are you?
Man: (also half joking) you never know
Sride: well then Id better say my prayers..
Man: youd say anything but your prayers. (overheard by Marshall)

Its also something that I think is consistant with what stride would say in that she had known afiliations with her church.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Abby

I would tend to think that Best and gardner saw Stride with BS/peaked cap man also if it wasn't for the Bowler hat-perhaps they just got that part of the decription wrong. to me the sighting was consistant with what she was doing that night- which was going out and possibly keeping an eye out for a new boyfriend/sugar daddy having recently broken up with kidney..

The problem for me with B&G getting their description wrong of the Bricklayer`s Arms Man is that there were two of them (they both somehow agreed on the man`s description) and they also had a good, long look at the man, close up.
But, this sighting was at 11am, and Marshall saw Stride at 11.45, which isn`t much time between them, considering Stride had to the biz with Bricklayer Arms man, then pick up Marshall`s man and be wandering down Berner St by 11.45. Possible of course but I do struggle with the difference between a peaked cap and a billycock hat.

I think Stride probably met BS/peaked cap man in a pub and they wandered around a bit, perhaps him buying her a few items and trying to finagle her into a secluded area..

Personally, I`d say it was more likely she approached the men on the street.
But yes, I`ll admit she was possibly seen leaving a pub with a man.
Yes, I get the same feeling about the man trying to get her into a secluded area.
I don`t like the way Marshall`s man had his arm wrapped around her neck when they were walking together, very possessive.

But The thing is there were two of them-which to me makes it unlikely they were both off about the hat type. I give it 60-40 they saw some other couple.

They did identify her at the mortuary and they did get a good look at her alive.
I think it was Stride with a different man to peak capped man

[Abby Normal]

Thanks John



Could be, but I`ve always thought Best and Gardner`s man is the odd one out because of his billycock hat. Yes, he was still a short man with a moustache in a jacket.

By the way, not many people know this but fyi the witness J. Best is actually John Bass (as discovered by John Bennett)



I don`t think Stride made it to the lodging house.



Didn`t Bass and Gardner only see the couple as they were entering the pub, and Stride and her companion were stood in the doorway of the pub waiting for a shower to pass.
I fit was a busy pub, there was more chance they would have just blended in and not being particularly noticed.



But wasn`t it a case of the man being all over Stride, rather than the both of them going for it ? Now, if it had been Stride all over the man, that could indicate a relationship

Hi Jon

I would tend to think that Best and gardner saw Stride with BS/peaked cap man also if it wasn't for the Bowler hat-perhaps they just got that part of the decription wrong. to me the sighting was consistant with what she was doing that night- which was going out and possibly keeping an eye out for a new boyfriend/sugar daddy having recently broken up with kidney.

I think Stride probably met BS/peaked cap man in a pub and they wandered around a bit, perhaps him buying her a few items and trying to finagle her into a secluded area.

But The thing is there were two of them-which to me makes it unlikely they were both off about the hat type. I give it 60-40 they saw some other couple.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

You've got a good memory! I never tend to remember what quote comes from which newspaper report. Of course, you're absolutely correct: Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March, 1903.

Thanks JohnG

It seems the man and his peaked cap the night of the double event made an impression on Abberline. But no specific witness did. To me that speaks volumes.

[John G]

Thanks John



Could be, but I`ve always thought Best and Gardner`s man is the odd one out because of his billycock hat. Yes, he was still a short man with a moustache in a jacket.

By the way, not many people know this but fyi the witness J. Best is actually John Bass (as discovered by John Bennett)



I don`t think Stride made it to the lodging house.



Didn`t Bass and Gardner only see the couple as they were entering the pub, and Stride and her companion were stood in the doorway of the pub waiting for a shower to pass.
I fit was a busy pub, there was more chance they would have just blended in and not being particularly noticed.



But wasn`t it a case of the man being all over Stride, rather than the both of them going for it ? Now, if it had been Stride all over the man, that could indicate a relationship

Hi Jon,

Yes, I've just checked Best's account and he did say that they were stood in the doorway of the pub. In fact, he actually said to the man, "Why don't you bring the woman in and treat her?" But he didn't respond. He also claimed that the man "threw sidelong glanced into the bar" and wouldn't look anyone in the face. And, at one point, Best said to the woman, "that's leather apron getting round you."

Best also implied that it was the man who was initiating intimacy, i.e. he was kissing and cuddling the woman.

I agree that the billycock hat is a bit of problem, and thanks for the info about J Best being John Bass, it was something I was unaware of.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks John

Do you therefore think that Stride may have been with the same man all night, or from the time of the Best and Gardner sighting? .

Could be, but I`ve always thought Best and Gardner`s man is the odd one out because of his billycock hat. Yes, he was still a short man with a moustache in a jacket.

By the way, not many people know this but fyi the witness J. Best is actually John Bass (as discovered by John Bennett)

Of course, if they had spent time in a lodging house together you would have expected witnesses to have come forward. .

I don`t think Stride made it to the lodging house.

Nonetheless, Best and Gardner mention her leaving the Bricklayer's Arms with a man, but no witnesses came forward who had seen them in, what might well have been, a busy pub..

Didn`t Bass and Gardner only see the couple as they were entering the pub, and Stride and her companion were stood in the doorway of the pub waiting for a shower to pass.
I fit was a busy pub, there was more chance they would have just blended in and not being particularly noticed.

What's also strange about this sighting is that the man was observed kissing and cuddling the woman, behaviour that clearly shocked the witnesses, particularly as the man was respectable dressed. And it doesn't suggest to me a prostitute and client relationship, more like boyfriend and girlfriend or, at the very least, two people who were well known to each other.

But wasn`t it a case of the man being all over Stride, rather than the both of them going for it ? Now, if it had been Stride all over the man, that could indicate a relationship

[John G]

Abberlines interview with the Pall mall gazette I Beleive where he's talking about his theory on chapman.

Hi Abby,

You've got a good memory! I never tend to remember what quote comes from which newspaper report. Of course, you're absolutely correct: Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March, 1903.

[John G]

Hi John

What about the one`s like Frances Coles, spending the weekend in lodging houses with their "dates".

That way, they would get their food, bed and booze covered for a few days.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for this information, it was something I was unaware of. Do you therefore think that Stride may have been with the same man all night, or from the time of the Best and Gardner sighting?

Of course, if they had spent time in a lodging house together you would have expected witnesses to have come forward. Nonetheless, Best and Gardner mention her leaving the Bricklayer's Arms with a man, but no witnesses came forward who had seen them in, what might well have been, a busy pub.

What's also strange about this sighting is that the man was observed kissing and cuddling the woman, behaviour that clearly shocked the witnesses, particularly as the man was respectably dressed. And it doesn't suggest to me a prostitute and client relationship, more like boyfriend and girlfriend or, at the very least, two people who were well known to each other.

[John G]

Hi John

Do you have the 'source' for this statement?

Could be important

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March, 1903, see:http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../19030324.html.

Abberline was expounding his theory concerning George Chapman being JtR (he went into further detail in the following week's issue). The full quote is: "One discrepancy only have I noted, and that is that the people who alleged that they saw Jack the Ripper at one time or another, state that he was about thirty-five or forty years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back, and it is easy to misjudge age from a back view."

The quote is often cited on George Hutchinson threads, i.e. to support the argument that Abberline lost interest in Hutchinson as a witness. But, of course, the observation equally undermines Schwartz.

[Jon Guy]

I could imagine, say, a West End prostitute spending a significant amount of time with a client, but I would have thought it unlikely to be the case in respect of a streetwalker in impoverished Whitechapel: unless, perhaps, like Kelly they had suitable accommodation.

Hi John

What about the one`s like Frances Coles, spending the weekend in lodging houses with their "dates".

That way, they would get their food, bed and booze covered for a few days.

[Jeff Leahy]

Regarding Abberline, we don't know how long he retained faith in Schwartz as a witness. However as I've noted before, when advocating Chapman as a suspect he argued that witnesses had only seen a suspect from the back, which suggests that, at this point, he no longer considered Schwartz a reliable witness.

Hi John

Do you have the 'source' for this statement?

Could be important

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

thumb and forefinger

Hello CD. Good points.

Also, she was holding them between thumb and forefinger. Very precarious.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

He did indeed. I remember him grabbing his private parts and distinctly saying "yeah, I got your inferential justification of deduction right here."

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

I think that might possibly qualify as a Schwartz-type of recollection!

[lynn cates]

reasons

Hello Jon.

"As for Schwartz, I can't dismiss his statement because both Abberline & Swanson seem to accept it, and they must have known more than we do."

What about this.

1. Abberline accepts the story, given:

A. Schwartz's favourable body english whilst being examined.
B. No manifest contradiction.

2. Swanson accepts, given his implicit trust in Abberline's judgment?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John.
Not speaking as an authority on the subject but, I'm pretty sure there was more than one type of 'soliciting'.

By way of example, we have women who prefer to solicit for brief encounters, a quick knee-trembler, and they are on their way.
Then there are others who hook up with a man who treats them to drink, and maybe pie and peas, and a bit of companionship for the night and she will stay with him until he has spent up.

I suspect Stride was the latter, and the man who killed her was the one seen by PC Smith, which was the same man she was with at the Bricklayers Arms, and quite possibly the man Packer saw her with.
And yes, I am well aware that differences exist in the descriptions of these men, though differences exist between witness descriptions today as the police can all too easily verify.

Packer was 58 yrs old, and could only see the chest of the man due to the serving window being so low, then he see's the man across the street in the dark. How many 58 year olds today don't have failing eyesight?

Then we have PC Smith who saw a man in a hard felt hat, but then later he says the hat was a deerstalker - they are not the same.
Packer changed his mind and was ridiculed for it, PC Smith changed his mind and no-one noticed.

As for Schwartz, I can't dismiss his statement because both Abberline & Swanson seem to accept it, and they must have known more than we do. However, my theory does not rely on Schwartz's statement, in fact you could eliminate Schwartz altogether (as some have suggested), and my theory does not change.

Hi Jon,

I could imagine, say, a West End prostitute spending a significant amount of time with a client, but I would have thought it unlikely to be the case in respect of a streetwalker in impoverished Whitechapel: unless, perhaps, like Kelly they had suitable accommodation.

Moreover, PC Smith referred to the suspect carrying a newspaper parcel which, of course, no other witnesses refers to, and I would have thought it doubtful that they would miss seeing such an object.

I also agree that Stride was almost certainly killed by PC Smith's suspect. As I've noted before, it seems likely that his time estimates were wrong and that it was close to 12:45 when he noticed Stride with the suspect. If this is correct, then the killer could have been disturbed by Mortimer arriving on her doorstep at around 12:46.

Regarding Abberline, we don't know how long he retained faith in Schwartz as a witness. However as I've noted before, when advocating Chapman as a suspect he argued that witnesses had only seen a suspect from the back, which suggests that, at this point, he no longer considered Schwartz a reliable witness.