Schwartz v. Lawende

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff.

It looks like, so long as the man is spending his money on her, she has no reason to dump him. It isn't every prostitute who is treated to cheese, potato and pastry or bread all washed down with ale.
No wonder she stayed with him for so long.

I wouldn't like to say if her killer was Jack, but I suspect the Smith suspect was her killer.

I've often wondered if Jack offered presents to the victims...'see what a jolly new bonnet I have?'

It fits with Aaron Kozminski based in Butchers Row?

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

.... when it becomes clear she was seen with different men that evening.

Not to advocate any "boyfriend" theory, but it is not clear she was with different men between 11:00pm & her death.
We have suspicions, and there are arguments both for and against, but neither position is clearly correct.

[Joshua Rogan]

There's this myth that Stride 'made herself up' that has been going around for years. I believe this stems from the fact that many of the victims were essentially homeless and wore/carried all their belongings with them. But Stride had lived in her own place with Kidney for years and possessed good clothes. That's why the press says she doesn't look like she's from the area and there was speculation that she'd been lured there from the west side. But there's no suggestion that she looked any better that day than on any given weekend. That's just the clothes she had. What I thought was most interesting is that even though she rarely lived in the lodging house, she was able to waltz in and get paid by the deputy to do cleaning. This must have stirred the ire of longer term residences who were not so cozy with the deputy. But this idea that she got gussied up with a date for a secret boyfriend falls flat when it becomes clear she was seen with different men that evening.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I agree almost completely, but are you sure she lived at Devonshire St with Kidney for years? She was apparently well known at the 32 Flower & Dean St lodging house, having lived there on and off for "most of the last six years", although she'd just moved back after a prolonged absence. That's according to Thomas Bates, the watchman, interviewed by the Star, 1st Oct.
He is quoted as saying of Stride;
"Lor' bless you, when she could get no work she had to do the best she could for her living, but a neater and a cleaner woman never lived."
So it seems she was very much in the habit of taking care or her appearance, not just on this one night.

[John G]

Hi Jon,

I think its more probable that, considering that BSM and PM are at this stage still just constructs within a story and not verified people at that scene by anyone, that Liz Strides killer was not seen by any witness. Which would lend itself to someone on the property who didnt go out on the street from 12:35 to 1am.

Hello Michael,

But what about PC Smith's suspect?

I doubt if it was anyone who left the club after 12:30 as their absence would probably have been noted-and don't think this is something the club would have been likely to cover up. I mean, if that was the intention, why did Lave admit going into the yard, when the only witnesses would have been club members?

[John G]

As we know, Morris Eagle wasnt the originally scheduled speaker that night. The orginal speaker was William Morris, and he was cancelled because there were threats of action by his detractors. So....it seems reasonable that up until the cancellation the club had solicited help for their security.

What if they were unable to cancel that security at the last moment, or decided to hire them on staff for the night anyway? Does anyone recall anyone mentioning Security staff being questioned?

A security person for that kind of affair would be a street tough, someone to intimidate and physically handle a situation.

What if one of those men were in the passageway when Liz enters..perhaps as early as 12:35...and after questioning her and being blown off by a cocky street wise woman who was not into being interrogated he gets angry beyond his own control and acts when she turns her back to teach this woman a lesson?

Cutting people with knives was not a rare event during that period in time, dissecting them after cutting their throats was. One brief flash of uncontrolled anger, a 2 second loss of self control....is more than enough to explain what happened in that passageway.

There are no indications whatsoever that a serial mutilator was in that passageway at any time on that night.

Murdering victims in a public area, by slitting their throat, was an exceptionally rare crime, at least for the Whitechapel area!

[John G]

Hi John

Yes I know the begining well...I'd not noticed the witness from behind which could apply equally to Lawende or Schwartz

Abberline of course transfers in about May 1889... If Cox is correct they follow there suspect for three months following the last murder, and this ties with what MacNuaghten says about Kozminski March 1889.

And Anderson is still saying police didn't have a clue by August 1889

I think it clear that police tried and failed to bring a case by then and if used the witnesses failed to ID the suspect..

Hence why Abberline favours Chapman and MAcNaughten Druit... When confronted with the evidence they clearly didn't agree with COX...There simply wasn't enough to go on by March 1889.....case closed...move on

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, it's strange he appears to have forgotten about the Lawende sighting. However, he was a City Police witness, so would Abberline have had any involvement in the Eddowes murder inquiry?

Of course, he must have known about Lawende initially, if only from the press reports, but his recollection may have been defective. And Lawende didn't exactly come across as a very inspiring witness at the time, stating that he doubted he would recognize the suspect again. So maybe, when trying to recall events several years later, he assumed that he had only seen the suspect from the back. In fact, could he have got the suspect mixed up with Lawende's sighting of Eddowes, who he clearly only got a back view of?

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abbey

Yes I tend to agree with you here....but doesn't it still strike you as odd that a prostitute would give so much time to a complete stranger?

I wonder if those arguing that Stride made herself up to meet a specific client and then changed her mind might be onto something...

Its always struck me as odd that all the other victims from Smith to Kellly, meant their attacker on the north side of the Whitechapel Road.....So why Berner Street?

Many thanks

Yours jeff

There's this myth that Stride 'made herself up' that has been going around for years. I believe this stems from the fact that many of the victims were essentially homeless and wore/carried all their belongings with them. But Stride had lived in her own place with Kidney for years and possessed good clothes. That's why the press says she doesn't look like she's from the area and there was speculation that she'd been lured there from the west side. But there's no suggestion that she looked any better that day than on any given weekend. That's just the clothes she had. What I thought was most interesting is that even though she rarely lived in the lodging house, she was able to waltz in and get paid by the deputy to do cleaning. This must have stirred the ire of longer term residences who were not so cozy with the deputy. But this idea that she got gussied up with a date for a secret boyfriend falls flat when it becomes clear she was seen with different men that evening.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rosella]

As we know, Morris Eagle wasnt the originally scheduled speaker that night. The orginal speaker was William Morris, and he was cancelled because there were threats of action by his detractors. So....it seems reasonable that up until the cancellation the club had solicited help for their security.

What if they were unable to cancel that security at the last moment, or decided to hire them on staff for the night anyway? Does anyone recall anyone mentioning Security staff being questioned?

A security person for that kind of affair would be a street tough, someone to intimidate and physically handle a situation.

What if one of those men were in the passageway when Liz enters..perhaps as early as 12:35...and after questioning her and being blown off by a cocky street wise woman who was not into being interrogated he gets angry beyond his own control and acts when she turns her back to teach this woman a lesson?

Cutting people with knives was not a rare event during that period in time, dissecting them after cutting their throats was. One brief flash of uncontrolled anger, a 2 second loss of self control....is more than enough to explain what happened in that passageway.

There are no indications whatsoever that a serial mutilator was in that passageway at any time on that night.

I have never heard (and I've read a lot about Victorian England as it was one of my majors at uni) of any club, however rowdy it was, formally hiring security/bouncers etc. I'm not saying that it wouldn't ever happen, just that I've never heard of it. And how would they pay such men? This was a very poor club in a poverty stricken slum. The members wouldn't have money to put towards such a service.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"As for Schwartz, I can't dismiss his statement because both Abberline & Swanson seem to accept it, and they must have known more than we do."

What about this.

1. Abberline accepts the story, given:

A. Schwartz's favourable body english whilst being examined.
B. No manifest contradiction.

2. Swanson accepts, given his implicit trust in Abberline's judgment?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

I'm sure Abberline was best informed about Schwartz, given that he was the principal interviewing officer, and you may be correct that Swanson is only echoing in-house opinion, not his own personal opinion.
We note Swanson only make reference to the police statement, not Schwartz's demeanor or his attitude, just what Swanson read about him.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

Yes an interesting observation.

But if she was already with 'Jack' from the out wasn't she with him rather a long time for a prostitute?

Many thanks

Yours jeff

Hi Jeff.

It looks like, so long as the man is spending his money on her, she has no reason to dump him. It isn't every prostitute who is treated to cheese, potato and pastry or bread all washed down with ale.
No wonder she stayed with him for so long.

I wouldn't like to say if her killer was Jack, but I suspect the Smith suspect was her killer.

[Michael W Richards]

As we know, Morris Eagle wasnt the originally scheduled speaker that night. The orginal speaker was William Morris, and he was cancelled because there were threats of action by his detractors. So....it seems reasonable that up until the cancellation the club had solicited help for their security.

What if they were unable to cancel that security at the last moment, or decided to hire them on staff for the night anyway? Does anyone recall anyone mentioning Security staff being questioned?

A security person for that kind of affair would be a street tough, someone to intimidate and physically handle a situation.

What if one of those men were in the passageway when Liz enters..perhaps as early as 12:35...and after questioning her and being blown off by a cocky street wise woman who was not into being interrogated he gets angry beyond his own control and acts when she turns her back to teach this woman a lesson?

Cutting people with knives was not a rare event during that period in time, dissecting them after cutting their throats was. One brief flash of uncontrolled anger, a 2 second loss of self control....is more than enough to explain what happened in that passageway.

There are no indications whatsoever that a serial mutilator was in that passageway at any time on that night.

[Michael W Richards]

But if you were the Ripper, would you risk killing Stride, knowing that you had been seen up close, and especially if the connection was made between him and L.A. even if it was in jest.
I think they left the pub quickly once B&G started taking the piss.

Hi Jon,

I think its more probable that, considering that BSM and PM are at this stage still just constructs within a story and not verified people at that scene by anyone, that Liz Strides killer was not seen by any witness. Which would lend itself to someone on the property who didnt go out on the street from 12:35 to 1am.

[Jeff Leahy]

The quote is often cited on George Hutchinson threads, i.e. to support the argument that Abberline lost interest in Hutchinson as a witness. But, of course, the observation equally undermines Schwartz.

Hi John

Yes I know the begining well...I'd not noticed the witness from behind which could apply equally to Lawende or Schwartz

Abberline of course transfers in about May 1889... If Cox is correct they follow there suspect for three months following the last murder, and this ties with what MacNuaghten says about Kozminski March 1889.

And Anderson is still saying police didn't have a clue by August 1889

I think it clear that police tried and failed to bring a case by then and if used the witnesses failed to ID the suspect..

Hence why Abberline favours Chapman and MAcNaughten Druit... When confronted with the evidence they clearly didn't agree with COX...There simply wasn't enough to go on by March 1889.....case closed...move on

Yours Jeff

[Jon Guy]

Theres no doubt in my mind that marshals man was BS man and strides killer..

Yes, same here.
I believe it`s the simplest solution working with what facts we have to hand.

another reason that B&G might have seen stride (and/or her killer) is that during their encounter they say to stride-"that's leather apron getting round you."..

But if you were the Ripper, would you risk killing Stride, knowing that you had been seen up close, and especially if the connection was made between him and L.A. even if it was in jest.
I think they left the pub quickly once B&G started taking the piss.

So later I could envision a conversation between stride and marshalls man going something like this:

Stride: (half joking) Your not Leathor Apron are you?
Man: (also half joking) you never know
Sride: well then Id better say my prayers..
Man: youd say anything but your prayers. (overheard by Marshall)

Its also something that I think is consistant with what stride would say in that she had known afiliations with her church.

Very possibly, Abby.
But I think Stride just hung around that church for the handout`s and freebies rather than any religious fervour.
I just think she was been a bit coquettish in reply to the man.
He was asking for a quick shag, and she was playing it not too easy.
But still, possibly leading to frustration on part of the man.