Packer and Schwartz

[Jonathan H]

To Lynn

I respect that point of view, for sure.

My interpretation of the material has a different angle.

It is to prove that Sir Melville knew exactly who Montague Druitt was, e.g. a barrister, a teacher, an Oxonian and an athlete, and exactly when he really killed himself. And that he also believed that he was a multiple murderer of strangers, and this solution was broadly shared with the public.

Whether Macnaghten was correct in his posthumous judgement, in his certainty, can never be absolutely known.

Packer and Schwartz are footnotes. The main game is Joseph Lawende, who was the top witness for Major Smith.

In Guy Logan (1905) the Lawende figure sees the Druitt figure, Mortemer Slade, with his fair moustache but it is a disguise (e.g. a fake moustache in this open mix of fact and fiction, just like the one the prime suspect was wearing in another case Mac believed he had solved: the murder of Liz Camp in 1897). In Mac's and Sims' account Lawende is disguised as a [Gentile] beat cop.

It is Lawende who likely did not identify Tom Sadler in 1891, but did, again allegedly, identify William Grant in 1895.

The one surviving photo of Grant shows he bears a generic resemblance to Druitt (this is disputed).

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Yes just in time to be made aware of the Batty Street Bloody shirt mid October 1888."

Perhaps you should read Tom's work on this red herring.

Obviously I'm going on Rob House's chapter on the subject (Prime Suspect)...however Tom and Monty's books are the two on my Xmas list.

"Yes he would have seen all the reports and been aware of the main lines of enquiry."

Of course, KNOWING the suspects and inquiries is not the same as actually investigating the crimes.

"Kozminski was the suspect."

Yes. The one alluded to by Sir Robert. But that may or may NOT be Swanson's considered opinion. Cheers.
LC

Obviously I'm well aware of the argument...I just think its pooh pants

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (again) Jeff. Thanks.

"Unfortunately Lynn there was only one lust serial killer at work mutilating bodies."

Whence lust killings? That is PURE speculation. Why only one? Again . . .

As you may or may not know my main interest is in UK serial killers... But I do think you have to grasp the rarity of such killers.. infact so rare as to make Jack almost unique..

Serial killers who gain sexual gratification from stabbing and mutilating female genitals you can count (At least in the UK) on one hand...Hence why the Sally Bowman murder interests me...

But while I accept that more than one serial killer was on the street in 1888, poisoners and stranglers (Mainly for financial rather than sex desire)

The murders of JTR have a unique geography and desire target

There was only one JACK

"Which in my opinion includes MacKenzie but not Mylett or Coles but possibly Farmer?"

Delighted you mentioned opinion. Coles is excluded ONLY because it would decisively rule out Kosminski. Farmer? Look at what her assailant muttered as he bolted. Schizophrenic? Don't think so. Cheers.
LC

I think I've given fairly good reasons for my tally.. And as you can see I believe Stride was the odd one out.... All the rest being picked up where I mark Green. (Pink being where I believe Koz was living and working)

Jack is a LUST serial killer he has specific needs and requirements... Nothing to do with knives or cutting throats but the sexual thrill of mutilation targeted at female genitals... Thats why I include Smith

Why not Coles? Swallow gardens aint on Jacks turf... The cut to the throat left plenty of time for his desires... Also i think it a strong possibility that Sadler did kill Coles..Coles has no sign of sexual target...obviously neither does Stride but than Sally Anne Bowman was also a double event..

But I again draw you back to the geography and the green areas marked on the map all north of the Whitechapel road, all in veiw of the White chapel itself

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (yet again) Jeff. Thanks.

"The simple geography suggests if Druitt were Jack, then given what we know about serial killers we'd expect a wider spread of kills..."

It also shows what can happen if we make TWO assumptions rather than one.

Cheers.
LC

Sorry Lynn I'm not following what you are trying to say here?

My observation on Druit is simple, if he traveled from Black Heath into London to kill the radiation point should be Cannon Street station not a small area of Whitechapel High street

The only serial killer I can think of who travelled to a single location was Colin Ireland who went to a specific gay night club... You might also argue this for bible john although many have suggested he carried on killing else where...

Jacks kills are all collected within a few hundred yards by someone who lived and worked within a few hundred yards...by foot

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

I'm not so convinced that the Smith suspect wore a peaked cap. The official police description of the man seen by PC Smith describes him wearing a hard felt hat.
A deerstalker is soft, usually tweed, but at least soft enough to fold up and put in your pocket. The mention of "deerstalker" first appears a week later at the inquest, and I suspect this is an error.

While the deerstalker does have a peak, it is small and the crown of the deerstalker is domed, rounded, not flat as a sailors cap. In profile they are not similar, but how the description of deerstalker became added to the "hard felt hat" is difficult to explain. What we have is an either/or situation, but not both, and the official police release lacks any mention of "deerstalker".

However, both BS-man & the Lawende suspect wore a peaked cap, but even so, with the many varieties of peaked cap worn by the working class in the East End, as any street scene's will testify (incl. your photo's), we cannot even be sure they both wore similar hats.

We live alone in an old house and a part of it is similar to Millerīs Court (just reversed). Behind the house it is similar to Dutfieldīs Yard. Yesterday evening I went out to see what the lightning conditions are. There is a lamp above the door ("Kellyīs room"). If someone is standing in front of the door with the face to me I have a good view of this person. At the area "Dutfieldīs Yard" it was just too dark. I cannot imagine that Schwartz had a good view of the man. But I am 43 years old and wearing glasses. On the side of the board school PC Smith should have had a better view of the man/cap (one could think that).

PC Smith, Inquest:

He wore a dark felt deerstalker's hat.

Police Gazette, 19 October 1888:

At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at 1 a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A MAN, age 28, height 5 ft. 8 in., complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance. Carried a parcel wrapped up in newspaper.

Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat ?

Where is it gone wrong?

I really do not know, I am not able to form an individual opinion.

Packer 25-30, PC Smith 28, Schwartz 30, Lawende 30 + the man in Church Lane + deerstalker + cap with peak... it is possible that PC Smith and Schwartz have seen the same man... and it cannot be ruled out that two young men with a cap with a peak were in the same street at the same time...

PC Smithīs man was standing and appeared sober. The BS Man appeared "drunk". If the Smith man had a walking impediment PC Smith could not see it.

[Jeff Leahy]

PC Smithīs man was standing and appeared sober. The BS Man appeared "drunk". If the Smith man had a walking impediment PC Smith could not see it.

Yeah I think you make a fair point here.

Perhaps sometimes to much emphasis is given to what is said and reported without actually considering the context of what someone saw.

The witness POV as I like to call it.

This often effects the witness description, fore instance Schwartz main POV of the witness is walking behind him down Berner street for almost 60-90 seconds

As you say PC Smith walks past a stationary couple, as does Brown

But in Browns case the man has his back to him and he stands between Stride and Brown blocking his view

Also we can never be sure of the lighting in any exact location, there simply has to be an amount of guess work and that means we need to make allowances in the descriptions given...

I used to give an example of three different people sat in three different seats at the same Tenis match.. all three would give completely different accounts of the same game depending on there individual advantage spot and likes and preferences... But they'd probably all come up with the same score at the end.

Yours Jeff

[Wickerman]

We live alone in an old house and a part of it is similar to Millerīs Court (just reversed). Behind the house it is similar to Dutfieldīs Yard. Yesterday evening I went out to see what the lightning conditions are. There is a lamp above the door ("Kellyīs room"). If someone is standing in front of the door with the face to me I have a good view of this person. At the area "Dutfieldīs Yard" it was just too dark. I cannot imagine that Schwartz had a good view of the man. But I am 43 years old and wearing glasses. On the side of the board school PC Smith should have had a better view of the man/cap (one could think that).

PC Smith, Inquest:

He wore a dark felt deerstalker's hat.

Police Gazette, 19 October 1888:

At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at 1 a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A MAN, age 28, height 5 ft. 8 in., complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance. Carried a parcel wrapped up in newspaper.

Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat ?

Where is it gone wrong?

A deerstalker, is not a hard felt hat.

Deerstalker.


Hard felt hat.


The official description appeared in the press on Oct. 1st.

The following description has been circulated by the police of a man said to have been seen with the woman Stride (murdered in Berner-street) during Saturday evening:- "Age twenty-eight. Slight. Height, 5ft. 8in. Complexion dark. No whiskers. Black diagonal coat. Hard felt hat. Collar and tie. Carried newspaper parcel. Respectable appearance".

Then we have the typical sailors cap of the period.



Could we mistake either one for the other?

[Jeff Leahy]

Could we mistake either one for the other?

Thanks Jon, really interesting post

I think you could miss-take the peak cap for a deer stalker

But I don't think you'd miss-take the hard felt hat which is what I used to call a bowler (I can still remember london bridge when everyone wore them thats how old I'm getting!)

Yours Jeff

[c.d.]

Just a couple of points. Could "appeared drunk" possibly refer to loud singing or talking to himself as opposed to his gait?

Unless the Whitechapel Murderer was killing on the spur of the moment, I don't think he would want to be wearing anything out of the ordinary that might help identify him.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

Unless the Whitechapel Murderer was killing on the spur of the moment, I don't think he would want to be wearing anything out of the ordinary that might help identify him.

c.d.

Hi CD

Yes I agree. And going by the link Karsten put up of hats of the period, a clothe cap with a peak, appeared to me , to be the most common type of hat. Almost all the men in that video were wearing hats of one sort or another, the exact opposite of today

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Could we mistake either one for the other?

Thank you!

They look very different... viewed from the front and with darkness I might confuse a deerstalker with a Sailorīs hat (in each case with a peak).

[S.Brett]

Just a couple of points. Could "appeared drunk" possibly refer to loud singing or talking to himself as opposed to his gait?

Unless the Whitechapel Murderer was killing on the spur of the moment, I don't think he would want to be wearing anything out of the ordinary that might help identify him.

c.d.

I agree!

[Wickerman]

Thank you!

They look very different... viewed from the front and with darkness I might confuse a deerstalker with a Sailorīs hat (in each case with a peak).

You're welcome

Yet the crown is rounded in one, and flat in the other?
Both witnesses, Schwartz in one case, and PC Smith in the other, passed very close, within feet?, of their respective suspects.

[S.Brett]

Yeah I think you make a fair point here.

Perhaps sometimes to much emphasis is given to what is said and reported without actually considering the context of what someone saw.

The witness POV as I like to call it.

This often effects the witness description, fore instance Schwartz main POV of the witness is walking behind him down Berner street for almost 60-90 seconds

As you say PC Smith walks past a stationary couple, as does Brown

But in Browns case the man has his back to him and he stands between Stride and Brown blocking his view

Also we can never be sure of the lighting in any exact location, there simply has to be an amount of guess work and that means we need to make allowances in the descriptions given...

I used to give an example of three different people sat in three different seats at the same Tenis match.. all three would give completely different accounts of the same game depending on there individual advantage spot and likes and preferences... But they'd probably all come up with the same score at the end.

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes.

I guess that the description of a "face" is depend on the ambient light.

Pipeman: hair, light brown;had a clay pipe in his hand... his moustaches were red...

While Pipeman lighting his pipe how did his "face" change?

Yours Karsten.

[S.Brett]

You're welcome

Yet the crown is rounded in one, and flat in the other?
Both witnesses, Schwartz in one case, and PC Smith in the other, passed very close, within feet?, of their respective suspects.

Is it possible that a Sailorīs hat turns into a Deerstalker if the head is, let me say, unusual?

https://vimeo.com/126448451

You are right, rounded and flat, are clear to see...