Packer and Schwartz

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

The scarf was "pulled tightly." The knot was to the left.

Is that what you mean?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn

I counter with Dr Phillips "deceased had a silk handerchief round her neck". Not "tied tightly round her neck". I think, had it been so, that it must have been mentioned. The KNOT was tied tightly. And if she had had the scarf tied tightly for longer than the time to render her insensible, don't you think there would have been more signs of strangulation than just the clenched hands - tongue protruding for example? And finally, in order for the scarf to be as you say, he would first have had to undo the knot and tie it again tightly. Much easier to pull and twist, thus tightening the knot, but not the scarf. To say nothing of the chance of her wriggling and crying out while he was tying and untying.

Over to you.

All good wishes
Gwyneth

[S.Brett]

"Oh and the 'Seaside Home' was the Holloway convalescent Home, next door to the Police Seaside Home in Hove..A private asylum in Surrey."

We can't be certain, but it would make sense of what Swanson says

Another possibility of course is Bedlam asylum also in Surrey in 1888

Hi Lynn, Hi Jeff,

On JTRForums I wrote:

Hi Jeff,

Addresses of the Convalescent Police Seaside:

51 Clarendon Villas, Hove opened in March 1890
11 Portland Road, Hove opened in July 1893

Address of Sir George Martin-Holloway:

14 Kings Gardens, Hove

Address of the Convalescent Seaside Home Holloway:

Hove Villa opened in October 1891

Address of the Jewish Convalescent Home:

(I guess) St.Patrick Road, Hove opened about 28 May 1891

All addresses were very close to each other. But Hove Villa (Holloway) and Clarendon Villas, Hove (Police Seaside Home) are different addresses and not the same address (originally I thought this is possible). I think I got it...

"In June 1891 the Committee of the Sanatorium (Holloway) purchased Hove Villa, with 2 acres of grounds, in Brighton..."

Do you know when Poole was closed? Who was the previous owner (or tenant) of Villa Hove? What is Hove Villa?

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=23034&page=14

"In June 1891 the Committee of the Sanatorium (Holloway) purchased Hove Villa, with 2 acres of grounds, in Brighton..."

Before June 1891 did Holloway already use this home in Brighton? The previous Address of Holloway´s Seaside Home was in Poole (I think the home moved back to Poole years later).

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

"However it strikes me that if COX got on the trail of the suspect after the Kelly murder, and the man was placed out of harm's way when Macnaughten says, March 1889 and where Cox says, a Private asylum in Surrey, and the Seaside Home ID didn't take place until 1891 almost two years later...then the witness was discovered at a later date than March 1889."

OK, assuming Cox is referring to the same.
Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

Its not assuming but a logic deduction. If cox is describing a key suspect that the City and MET kept surveillance upon, there must have been a pile of paper work involved... It is therefore beyond belief that when MacNaughten wrote his Home office memo on Cutbush if Cox's suspect had of been on the list he would have ignored him.

Beside to much of what Cox describes about the sweater shop disguise matches what we know about the 'Mad Snob'

Cox's suspect 'from time to time became insane' and Andersons 'lower than a brute' are thus one and the same

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Lynn

I counter with Dr Phillips "deceased had a silk handerchief round her neck". Not "tied tightly round her neck". I think, had it been so, that it must have been mentioned. The KNOT was tied tightly. And if she had had the scarf tied tightly for longer than the time to render her insensible, don't you think there would have been more signs of strangulation than just the clenched hands - tongue protruding for example?
Gwyneth

Good Morning Gwyneth

Like Chapman you mean, tongue slightly protruding?

But Stride is described as white/pale not rudy

So what if the scarf were pulled tight placing pressure on the cartroid artery cutting off the blood supply to the brain? Stride would then faint or pass out.

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Do you know when Poole was closed? Who was the previous owner (or tenant) of Villa Hove? What is Hove Villa?
[/I]

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=23034&page=14

"In June 1891 the Committee of the Sanatorium (Holloway) purchased Hove Villa, with 2 acres of grounds, in Brighton..."

Before June 1891 did Holloway already use this home in Brighton? The previous Address of Holloway´s Seaside Home was in Poole (I think the home moved back to Poole years later).

Karsten.

Unfortuately I can't give more precise detail, didn't you speculate that the police Seaside Home might have been used as temporary accommodation while the property was being refirbished?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hello Jon!

(Please excuse my onesidedness concerning "Kosminski")

Yes Cris.

The notice is headed: "Apprehensions sought. Murder. Metropolitan Police District"; and it proceeds:

"The woodcut sketches, purporting to resemble the persons last seen with the murdered women, which have appeared in The Daily Telegraph, were not authorised by police. The following are the descriptions of the persons seen:

"At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner-street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

"Information to be forwarded to the Metropolitan Police Office, Great Scotland-yard London, S.W.

"At 1.35 a.m., 30th Sept., with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

"Information respecting this man to be forwarded to Inspector M'William, 26, Old Jewry, London, E.C."
Daily Telegraph, Nov 12, 1888.

And the Smith suspect does not have that "deerstalker".

That is interesting! I suspect that the police has found "Kosminski" after the Double Event in October 1888 (Batty Street story etc.). Maybe he was one of many suspects. But I assume that the witnesses, Smith, Schwartz and Lawende would have "seen" this suspect after the police had found him. But no one of them recognised "Kosminski" (perhaps with "the exception" of the City PC). One could think that he looked quite different compared to these descriptions. And I still think that "Pipeman" might have been found (+ BS Man if "Kosminski"). Cox (City Police) stated:

"We had many people under observation while the murders were being perpetrated, but it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail. Certain investigations made by several of our cleverest detectives made it apparent to us that a man living in the East End of London was not unlikely to have been connected with the crimes."

If this man is "Kosminski" so what had happened after 9 (12) November 1888 when the police seemed to get upon the trail?

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London):

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

Evening News, London, U.K. 22 November 1888:

"The Central News says the following is the true account of the captured effected this morning: After an exciting chase he was captured and taken to Commercial-street Station. The report that he tried to injure his pursuers with a knife is contradicted by the police.

The Central News says: The man who was taken into custody near Brick-lane early this morning was simply arrested for assaulting a prostitute, and will be charged with that offence before the magistrates this morning. The case has no connection whatever with yesterday's outrage. On later inquiries at the Commercial-street Police-station the Central News was informed that the man wanted for the murderous assault on Mrs. Farmer had not yet been apprehended."

"The man arrested late last night in connection with the outrage on the woman Farmer, at George-street, Spitalfields, is still in custody at Commercial-street, Police-station, but the police decline to say whether they attach any importance to the arrest. George-street is perfectly quiet this morning, and the excitement seems to have already died out. No arrests have been made beyond the one last night."

Two incidents: Farmer on 21 November 1888, and another incident on 22 November.

Macnaghten said: "No one ever saw the Whitechapel Murderer" (perhaps with the exception of the Seaside Home witness)...

... Mrs.Long and Lawende, I guess, saw the Whitechapel Murderer... but did PC Smith and Schwartz see the killer?

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Unfortuately I can't give more precise detail, didn't you speculate that the police Seaside Home might have been used as temporary accommodation while the property was being refirbished?

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

purchased Hove Villa in June 1891...

Before June 1891: Tenancy?

Yours Karsten.

[curious4]

Good Morning Gwyneth

Like Chapman you mean, tongue slightly protruding?

But Stride is described as white/pale not rudy

So what if the scarf were pulled tight placing pressure on the cartroid artery cutting off the blood supply to the brain? Stride would then faint or pass out.

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff

Yes, that is what I am saying, that he pulled or twisted the scarf just long enough for her to pass out, not tied it tightly round her throat.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jeff

Yes, that is what I am saying, that he pulled or twisted the scarf just long enough for her to pass out, not tied it tightly round her throat.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

Hi Gwyneth

Dr Phillips was asked whether the scarf was pulled tight enough to stop her calling out, and he replied that he could not say that (meaning, no).
So, I don`t think it was pulled tight enough to make her pass out.

[curious4]

Hi Gwyneth

Dr Phillips was asked whether the scarf was pulled tight enough to stop her calling out, and he replied that he could not say that (meaning, no).
So, I don`t think it was pulled tight enough to make her pass out.

Hello Jon

Her hands were clenched (sign of quick throttling with a ligature) but no protruding tongue (if she had been choked for longer). I think if he was quick in twisting the handerchief she would have had no time to cry out/scream again. He only needed her unconscious until he cut her throat. The doctor only said he could not say. As do I, but I think my scenario explains why she didn't drop the cachous and how he got her into the yard behind the door.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Gwyneth

Dr Phillips was asked whether the scarf was pulled tight enough to stop her calling out, and he replied that he could not say that (meaning, no).
So, I don`t think it was pulled tight enough to make her pass out.

Morning Jon

I don't see how he would be able to tell... It was pulled tight but when released it would not be tight...it was after all around her neck, so if it was pulled tight it would cut the blood supply

Yours Jeff

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jeff and Gwyneth

Wouldn`t there be a mark on Stride`s neck if the scarf had been pulled tight enough to make her faint ?

[curious4]

Hi Jeff and Gwyneth

Wouldn`t there be a mark on Stride`s neck if the scarf had been pulled tight enough to make her faint ?

Hello Jon

Not necessarily according to my favourite pathologist if something soft is used.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[Jon Guy]

Not necessarily according to my favourite pathologist if something soft is used.

Did you specifically ask the pathologist about a silk ligature, Gwyneth ?

But yes, it would explain why she looked like she had been lain down.

[curious4]

Did you specifically ask the pathologist about a silk ligature, Gwyneth ?

But yes, it would explain why she looked like she had been lain down.

Hello Jon

No I didn't but I would call silk soft - as opposed to say string, or wire.

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/ligature-strangulation

He really is good.

Best wishes
C4