Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

You were a child in the 1880s?

Loftus (Macnaghten):

"a Polish tanner or cobbler"

Sims:

"when some time afterwards he saw the Pole"

I think that the Pole and the Polish cobbler is Kosminski. In the Loftus version the Polish Tannerīs nickname was "Leather Apron" and so it is possible that Kosminski was "The Mad Snob" with an own shop (Cox) and during the day he worked with his brother-in-law Morris Lubnowski- Cohen.

LLOYD'S WEEKLY NEWSPAPER, SUNDAY, SEPT. 9, 1888.

WHO IS "LEATHER APRON"?

"he is five feet four or five inches in height, and wears a dark, close-fitting cap... His hair is black, and closely clipped... He has a small, black moustache... . In addition to being known as "Leather Apron" he is also known as the "Mad Snob"... is the son of a fairly well-to-do Russian Jew..."

His hair is black, and closely clipped reminds me of Cox who stated:

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

is the son of a fairly well-to-do Russian Jew

We know that Aaron Kozminskiīs father died when Aaron was a child. But his brother Isaac Abrahams was 14 years older than Aaron.

Rob House/ Prime Suspect/ Batty Street story:

"The ladiesītailor, according to Mrs. Kuer, worked for a West End house"

Isaac had his own workshop and, maybe, he worked for a West End house.

Karsten.

Great stuff Karsten

The small shop in brick lane... Has anyone searched the directories of the period for a shoe shop around there? A retail outlet would make a lot of sense

Yours Jeff

PS Thanks Gwyneth most interesting

[c.d.]

Hello Ben and Lynn,

My analogy (which was apparently badly worded) had nothing to do with any Whitechapel rivalry but was merely a general admonition to consider the circumstances when considering the odds of an event occurring.

If Liz chose to stay in the same spot after her encounter with the B.S. man that would seem to indicate that it was simply a not so uncommon encounter with a drunken Whitechapel male and no real big deal. If every Whitechapel prostitute (yes, yes I know, Lynn) fled the streets after such an encounter they would starve to death. This scenario seems to be supported by Swanson supposing a second killer.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Following me around everywhere I post with personal attacks I see, Jon.

You being selective is a personal attack? and here's me thinking it was an honest observation.
Actually, a bunch of us have been debating Packer and Schwartz here for over two weeks, whereas you just arrived two days ago.
You followed me here because the Hutchinson threads are dormant?

You accuse me of omitting the Swanson quote that it was not "clearly proved" that BS man was Stride's killer, but where did I state that it was?

You didn't, and I never said you did.
Your selective editing of Swanson's comments is what was being addressed.
If I didn't know you better, or perhaps its because I do? it almost looks like you tried to take the balance out of Swanson's observation to make it appear one sided.

All I did was correct your mistaken belief that the police considered Schwartz and Smith "equally" likely to have seen the real killer.

Well, you failed.

On Nov. 12th the police released the three important suspect descriptions concerning the dual murders that night. The Lawende suspect, Schwartz suspect and the Smith suspect.

[Hunter]

Nov. 12?

[Wickerman]

"It's not just the sheer implausibility of two separate attackers descending on the same woman within minutes of each other, but rather the unlikelihood of the woman remaining in the same exact location following the first attack to await the murderous second."

Bingo. And with cachous in hand between thumb and forefinger.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
When the first attacker departs, what reason is there for the victim to also leave? Presumably, she was there for a reason, that reason has not changed.

Also, if she was alone at that time, it was the first time that night, and we have no idea where the Smith suspect went.
Therefore, if she was actually with the Smith suspect, again, there is no reason for her to leave.

[Wickerman]

Persoanlly i think the man he saw was the same man described by PC Smith and thus he did witness the murder but didn't get a good look at BSM's face...his view being largely of the rear

Hi Jeff.

Wouldn't you say the direction BS-man entered the scene, coming down Berner st. from Commercial Road, is a problem for that theory?
Also, Schwartz did not mention seeing the package.

[Wickerman]

Nov. 12?

Yes Cris.

The notice is headed: "Apprehensions sought. Murder. Metropolitan Police District"; and it proceeds:

"The woodcut sketches, purporting to resemble the persons last seen with the murdered women, which have appeared in The Daily Telegraph, were not authorised by police. The following are the descriptions of the persons seen:

"At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner-street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

"Information to be forwarded to the Metropolitan Police Office, Great Scotland-yard London, S.W.

"At 1.35 a.m., 30th Sept., with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

"Information respecting this man to be forwarded to Inspector M'William, 26, Old Jewry, London, E.C."
Daily Telegraph, Nov 12, 1888.

And the Smith suspect does not have that "deerstalker".

[Ben]

You being selective is a personal attack? and here's me thinking it was an honest observation.

Yes, it is a personal attack as defined by the forum rules; a clumsy, unimaginative one, and about as pot-kettle-black as they come, but a personal attack nonetheless. As for your rather pathetic defense that it was an "honest observation", I could accuse certain people to their faces of being fat and ugly if I wanted to; would that be any less of a personal attack because it was an "honest observation"?

You followed me here because the Hutchinson threads are dormant?

I chose to participate in this discussion because I found the subject matter interesting, and my introductory post was neither addressed to you nor written with you in mind.

If I didn't know you better, or perhaps its because I do? it almost looks like you tried to take the balance out of Swanson's observation to make it appear one sided.

Which is another personal attack; in this case, you're accusing me of lying, whereas in fact all I did was quote directly from Casebook's own page on Israel Schwartz. Lashings of apologies if you felt I should have included the fuller quote, but it doesn't make one poop of difference to the salient point you seemed to be challenging, which was that Donald Swanson considered Schwartz's man a "more probable" suspect in Stride's murder than Smith's man, assuming they were different.

Which brings me on to this:

Wouldn't you say the direction BS-man entered the scene, coming down Berner st. from Commercial Road, is a problem for that theory?
Also, Schwartz did not mention seeing the package.

A better point, Jon.

I share your reservation that the two witnesses described the same man, but if they were different, guess which witness was considered the "more probable" to have seen the murderer by the man in overall command of the investigation?

[Ben]

Hi c.d.

If Liz chose to stay in the same spot after her encounter with the B.S. man that would seem to indicate that it was simply a not so uncommon encounter with a drunken Whitechapel male and no real big deal.

But it's precisely that first "if" that I'm challenging.

I completely dispute that Stride "chose to stay in the same spot after her encounter with BS man". I'm suggesting that she was only likely to remain in the same spot between the arrival of her physical attacker and her subsequent murder - occurring as they did within minutes of each other - because she was kept there, against her will, by her physical attacker who minutes thereafter revealed himself to be her murderer.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

pulled

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

The scarf was "pulled tightly." The knot was to the left.

Is that what you mean?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Schwartz either failed to make an ID or couldn't make an ID because he didn't witness the murder."

I think that's right.

"Personally I think the man he saw was the same man described by PC Smith and thus he did witness the murder but didn't get a good look at BSM's face...his view being largely of the rear."

Did not PC Smith see "Parcel man"? Not BSM?

"I'm not familiar with Wirtkofsky's tale."

"It's in Stewart's book.

"However it strikes me that if COX got on the trail of the suspect after the Kelly murder, and the man was placed out of harm's way when Macnaughten says, March 1889 and where Cox says, a Private asylum in Surrey, and the Seaside Home ID didn't take place until 1891 almost two years later...then the witness was discovered at a later date than March 1889."

OK, assuming Cox is referring to the same.

"Personally, I now think it possible that someone (who was Jewish) saw Jack leaving Miller's Court between 4-6am, who was traced at a later date, following the evidence of Hutchinson and Sarah Lewis. This is the only possibility of making sense of the Marginalia, what Anderson says and why Macnaughten thought Druit was the Ripper."

Actually, if the Marginalia is Swanson trying to make sense of Anderson, and if Sir Robert received information from Mac, Wirtkofsky makes a LOT of sense as well.

"Oh and the 'Seaside Home' was the Holloway convalescent Home, next door to the Police Seaside Home in Hove..A private asylum in Surrey."

How can one be certain?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reposition

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If every Whitechapel prostitute (yes, yes I know, Lynn) fled the streets after such an encounter they would starve to death."

One need not flee the streets--one need merely reposition to a safer location.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

stay awhile

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"When the first attacker departs, what reason is there for the victim to also leave? Presumably, she was there for a reason, that reason has not changed."

Indeed, but look at my codicil with the cachous. Surely she must have calmed down a bit?

"Also, if she was alone at that time, it was the first time that night . . ."

PROVIDED all the sightings were bona fide Liz sightings.

". . . and we have no idea where the Smith suspect went."

Right, again. But not sure why he could not have merely walked away home? Seems natural enough IF he were a departing club member.

"Therefore, if she was actually with the Smith suspect, again, there is no reason for her to leave."

Indeed. But why is she there with parcel man? Do you have a scenario?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff.

Wouldn't you say the direction BS-man entered the scene, coming down Berner st. from Commercial Road, is a problem for that theory?
Also, Schwartz did not mention seeing the package.

Hi Jon

On the contrary. I think Stride was off his usual pick-up zone. I think he picked up his victims on the Whitechapel road and they took him for business at their preferred spot. Green marks his pick-up of Eddows, Kelly. Tabram, Smith, Nichols, and chapman

In pink I've marked significant locations. The princess Alice, his shop in brick lane, his sisters in Greenfield street and brother in Provenance street

As you can see Stride is off the beaten track but close to Greenfield st and Provence st... So plenty of time to go home ditch or open the parcel and come back empty handed

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

"Oh and the 'Seaside Home' was the Holloway convalescent Home, next door to the Police Seaside Home in Hove..A private asylum in Surrey."

How can one be certain?

Cheers.
LC

We can't be certain, but it would make sense of what Swanson says

Another possibility of course is Bedlam asylum also in Surrey in 1888

Yours Jeff