Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

If this is the truth Aaron Kozminski had to do with the brothel incident in Whitechapel Road (Gertrude Smith, Mary Jones, Ellen Hickey, N.Cohen and Aaron Davis Cohen).

There are three Cohens and a Davies to track in the Bedlam records. In 1888 Bedlam was at the site of todays imperial war Museum, and in Surrey

Yours Jeff

PS Cat says, 'Mad snob pants'

[Michael W Richards]

There are obviously quite a few issues with Israel Schwartz, that need not be disputed, but one thing that can be are the witnesses timing of events they claim to have seen.

Question: For what time do we have the most witness claims to have seen Elizabeth Stride?

Answer: 12:45am

Question: In how many accounts for that time is she on the ground dying?

Answer: At least 3

Question: In how many accounts for that time was she interacting with someone?

Answer: 2

Question: How many witnesses testified to a 12:45am Liz Stride sighting while alive at the Inquest?

Answer: 1

Question: How many club members stated she was first discovered dying or dead at just after 1am?

Answer: 1

As you can see, the number of witnesses claiming to have seen Liz Stride dead or dying at around 12:45 is greater that the witnesses who claimed otherwise. Based on that alone it would be considered prudent to factor an earlier attack than 12:45 into your own equations, which would put any claims that she was still alive and standing outside the gates at 12:45am into serious doubt.

Cheers

[S.Brett]

Hello Karsten

Thanks for the reminder that a cobbler was called a snob. Had completely forgotten that one !

Best wishes
C4

Hi Gwyneth (?),

I do not have too much of a clue of it. I think the bootlaster was named "Snob", not the cobbler.

Census Occupations - Cobbler:

Someone who repaired shoes and boots.

Boot Maker, Boot Laster, Shoemaker, Cobbler, Boot Riveter, Boot Finisher etc. perhaps the transitions between these occupations are flowing...

There are three Cohens and a Davies to track in the Bedlam records. In 1888 Bedlam was at the site of todays imperial war Museum, and in Surrey

Yours Jeff

PS Cat says, 'Mad snob pants'

Slogan:

"Catīs pants are the pants That Will not be Blamed for nothing"

Karsten.

[curious4]

Hi Gwyneth (?),

I do not have too much of a clue of it. I think the bootlaster was named "Snob", not the cobbler.

Census Occupations - Cobbler:

Someone who repaired shoes and boots.

Boot Maker, Boot Laster, Shoemaker, Cobbler, Boot Riveter, Boot Finisher etc. perhaps the transitions between these occupations are flowing...





Slogan:

"Catīs pants are the pants That Will not be Blamed for nothing"

Karsten.

Quite sure I remember the cobbler being referred to as the snob(s) when I was a child, which wasn't in the 1880s, by the way. I should think that the meaning had stretched a bit over the years :-).

Best wishes
C4

[Jeff Leahy]

There are obviously quite a few issues with Israel Schwartz, that need not be disputed, but one thing that can be are the witnesses timing of events they claim to have seen.

Question: For what time do we have the most witness claims to have seen Elizabeth Stride?

Answer: 12:45am

Question: In how many accounts for that time is she on the ground dying?

Answer: At least 3

Question: In how many accounts for that time was she interacting with someone?

Answer: 2

Question: How many witnesses testified to a 12:45am Liz Stride sighting while alive at the Inquest?

Answer: 1

Question: How many club members stated she was first discovered dying or dead at just after 1am?

Answer: 1

As you can see, the number of witnesses claiming to have seen Liz Stride dead or dying at around 12:45 is greater that the witnesses who claimed otherwise. Based on that alone it would be considered prudent to factor an earlier attack than 12:45 into your own equations, which would put any claims that she was still alive and standing outside the gates at 12:45am into serious doubt.

Cheers

Yeah but to be fair Schwartz turned into Berner Street at 12.45 am, the same time Brown left the shop, crossing the cross road into Fairclough Street where he saw Stride and a man 'Not to night some other night'

Brown eyeline or POV was directly ahead, So he would not have seen Schwartz or BSM some distance down Berner Street as he did so...

Browns direction is home, so he does not witness what happen behind him and was probably opening his door by the time Schwartz reaches Dutfield Yard and witnesses the attack on Stride.

So all the witness accounts can add together as everyone says, there are no reasons for contradiction. Especially if the man seen with Stride by Brown was also the pipeman which would make fairly good timing and sense.

BSM walks back past Mortimers Door and she comes to the door for ten minutes seeing only Goldstein who passes down the street shortly before 1 am.

Stride can not be dead at 12.40 am as Morris eagle passes through the yard and doesn't see her

Yours Jeff

[curious4]

Hi Gwyneth (?),

I do not have too much of a clue of it. I think the bootlaster was named "Snob", not the cobbler.

Census Occupations - Cobbler:

Someone who repaired shoes and boots.

Boot Maker, Boot Laster, Shoemaker, Cobbler, Boot Riveter, Boot Finisher etc. perhaps the transitions between these occupations are flowing...





Slogan:

"Catīs pants are the pants That Will not be Blamed for nothing"

Karsten.

Hello Karsten

Here we are:

https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/dictionary/of-snubs-and-snobs/

[T]he reference to the Latin tag is either mischievous or mistaken. … [T]he origin lies in a dialect word meaning a cobbler. It seems that early usage implied a person of humble rank or status, as cobblers of course were.

All the best
Gwyneth

Also appears in the dictionary of Kentish Dialect words :-)

[S.Brett]

when I was a child, which wasn't in the 1880s,

I was wrong... sorry

I should think that the meaning had stretched a bit over the years :-).

[Jeff Leahy]

https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/dictionary/of-snubs-and-snobs/

[T]he reference to the Latin tag is either mischievous or mistaken. … [T]he origin lies in a dialect word meaning a cobbler. It seems that early usage implied a person of humble rank or status, as cobblers of course were.

All the best
Gwyneth

Also appears in the dictionary of Kentish Dialect words :-)

Hi Gwyneth

Strange how that is almost the opposite of the slang usage today.. It means Snotty or think you are better than..

Do you think there might be a connection?

Many thanks Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hello Karsten

Here we are:

https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/dictionary/of-snubs-and-snobs/

[T]he reference to the Latin tag is either mischievous or mistaken. … [T]he origin lies in a dialect word meaning a cobbler. It seems that early usage implied a person of humble rank or status, as cobblers of course were.

All the best
Gwyneth

Also appears in the dictionary of Kentish Dialect words :-)

Thank you...

Of course now I remember a thread... Debra Arif/ Shoemaker/ Snob...

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=6516

[curious4]

I was wrong... sorry

Naah - we were both right! :-)

[curious4]

Hi Gwyneth

Strange how that is almost the opposite of the slang usage today.. It means Snotty or think you are better than..

Do you think there might be a connection?

Many thanks Jeff

Hello Jeff

The link gives an explanation - also for snub, not quite sure how it came to change. I know Dickens used the word but if I remember correctly he used it in the sense of a "wannabee".

I will try to find out when and why it changed.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[S.Brett]

Naah - we were both right! :-)

You were a child in the 1880s?

Loftus (Macnaghten):

"a Polish tanner or cobbler"

Sims:

"when some time afterwards he saw the Pole"

I think that the Pole and the Polish cobbler is Kosminski. In the Loftus version the Polish Tannerīs nickname was "Leather Apron" and so it is possible that Kosminski was "The Mad Snob" with an own shop (Cox) and during the day he worked with his brother-in-law Morris Lubnowski- Cohen.

LLOYD'S WEEKLY NEWSPAPER, SUNDAY, SEPT. 9, 1888.

WHO IS "LEATHER APRON"?

"he is five feet four or five inches in height, and wears a dark, close-fitting cap... His hair is black, and closely clipped... He has a small, black moustache... . In addition to being known as "Leather Apron" he is also known as the "Mad Snob"... is the son of a fairly well-to-do Russian Jew..."

His hair is black, and closely clipped reminds me of Cox who stated:

"The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair"

is the son of a fairly well-to-do Russian Jew

We know that Aaron Kozminskiīs father died when Aaron was a child. But his brother Isaac Abrahams was 14 years older than Aaron.

Rob House/ Prime Suspect/ Batty Street story:

"The ladiesītailor, according to Mrs. Kuer, worked for a West End house"

Isaac had his own workshop and, maybe, he worked for a West End house.

Karsten.

[curious4]

Hello Jeff

This is the best I could do. Not claiming to be an expert though!

snob 1781, "a shoemaker, a shoemaker's apprentice," of unknown origin. It came to be used in Cambridge University slang c.1796 for "townsman, local merchant," and by 1831 it was being used for "person of the ordinary or lower classes." Meaning "person who vulgarly apes his social superiors" arose 1843, popularized 1848 by William Thackeray's "Book of Snobs." The meaning later broadened to include those who insist on their gentility, in addition to those who merely aspire to it, and by 1911 had its main modern sense of "one who despises those considered inferior in rank, attainment, or taste."

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/22147/etymology-of-snob

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Hello Karsten

Certainly feels like it some days lol!

Gwyneth

[S.Brett]

Hello Karsten

Certainly feels like it some days lol!

Gwyneth

Hi Gwyneth,

I feel the same way... most of the time...

Karsten.