The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[DVV]

David, I dont think Caps needed chastising for the exploration of my question. Since Marx died in 1883...I dont think his doctrines should be considered broadly accepted by 1888 either.

Hi Mike,
broadly accepted or not, Marx doctrine was certainly accepted by socialist Jews at least.
But that wasn't my point. I mentioned Marx and Chomsky as examples of atheist and militant Jews, that's all.
Don's post, in any case, is clear and sensible - more than mine.
I'm sincerely sorry if I appeared offensive towards Cappuccina.
I'm not sure I was, but if so, apologies.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[perrymason]

Hi folks,

Perhaps I was miffed on Caps account David, whichever the case, thanks for the reply post and sorry If I categorized it incorrectly. And thanks for the notes on Tishri Roy. So the Sunday was not a devout Holy Day....but since Schwartz left his house the day before, technically he was there Sunday morning, but from an excursion that started the Saturday afternoon.

The Good Michael cites concerns I have given for a few years here regarding the International Club...the tide turned for me on these men when Tom Wescott informed me on some of the key characters ages at 40 Berner. None were over 30, and one was only 17, Kozebrodski.

Social upheaval requires strong young men sometimes.

I will accept David and Don that the likelihood is that no Jewish holiday was observed by the men at the International Club Saturday Night, although Im not sure that some might have felt very divided about having to choose definitively....but that doesnt yet include Schwartz ...we do not have a known connection with the Club or Socialism. Yet we do have him placing himself at a site that is associated with Socialism, and was active that night, still so when he says he was there.. at near 1am.

One of Schwartz's versions of his story infers antisemitism.
Is his "theatrical appearance" ethnically skewed at all I wonder?

You know what Im looking for......a signal that Schwartz would have any reason to tell a "story" in a way that passes the buck to a killer from outside the club, just arriving.

If Liz was mutilated like Annie...they wouldnt need a story...no cop would believe that 28 men there would all conspire to protect Jack the Ripper, even if the killer was one of their own. You have a stated empty yard and open gates. But she wasnt killed like Annie. She was killed in a manner that literally anyone there, including Mrs D, could have duplicated if so predisposed to kill.

Eagle and Lave figuratively clear the yard just before Schwartz arrives with their stories, though neither sees each other yet their stories have them both in the yard at 12:40.. Eagle's also locks the front door, Schwartz then puts the probable assailant first approaching Liz on the street, from the direction of that locked front door, Fanny though is at her door off and on from 12:45ish until 1am, and she doesnt see or hear Liz, BSM...or the man yell, Schwartz and Pipeman scurrying by...and although Goldstein walks past the gates within 1 minute of the latest time she was cut by Dr Blackwell at 1:16, there is nothing just inside the gates to see evidently, and no interest in his joining in the merriment inside even though he is also a member... though for Blackwell to be correct, she is almost certainly lying there or being killed at that time.

These events seem very fortuitous for the Club when added up, how could anyone suspect a Club member..empty yard, locked front door, Liz out of sight after meeting a thug outside the gates, and being found dead by the Club Steward returning from the market just inside them....with every other male member of the club still active that night on the second floor.

As The Good Michael says.....an understanding of how this club and members were perceived by neighbors and authorities puts the group in a category that involves probable unlawful activities....and Diemshutz, Kozebrodski and other are arrested in Dutfields Yard in 1889 for attacking Police with clubs.

I dont believe the above is the true story..and if so, Schwartz would have played a key role in its creation.

Best regards all.

[Roy Corduroy]

So the Sunday was not a devout Holy Day....but since Schwartz left his house the day before, technically he was there Sunday morning, but from an excursion that started the Saturday afternoon.

But that doesn't make him a Revolutionary nor in a conspiracy to protect one. Michael, I tried to clarify the situation for you. Now you want to melt the butter.

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom Wescott is right.

and

Tom is quite right.

Word to your Cappy.

I need to mark this day down on my calendar.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

But that doesn't make him a Revolutionary nor in a conspiracy to protect one. Michael, I tried to clarify the situation for you. Now you want to melt the butter.

Roy

No It doesnt Roy, I agree. Im not still suggesting he may have observed any Jewish Holiday at the club....Im taking the fact we dont know he was associated with the Club and his known Judaism to wonder if there are religious reasons for his being where he says he was at 12:45am. For example...where is the nearest temple from 40 Berner and would he pass that location on Berner Street as a ressonable route home from there? His new home. Were there late night prayer meetings nearby due to the holiday?

If any of that pans out...you will ask why would he lie for the Club? Good question. My idea is that he may have had friends in there...maybe some who went to a meeting that night intended to attract new Socialists...not rabble rouse the existing ones. Maybe he even did,...and didnt want a considered conversion made public.

Im thinking aloud of course here, Im not forming a dissertation or anything...my goal is to have input that to me addresses a nagging feeling that Schwartz's story may be tainted, that there may be logical reasons for that, and the lack of any evidence that his story was considered as trustworthy,..based on the total absence of the story at the Inquest.

Best regards.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Michael, why aren't you forming a dissertation? In my experience, the process of organizing and researching the information in order to write a cohesive dissertation usually helps the writer understand the subject even better.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Hi Michael, why aren't you forming a dissertation? In my experience, the process of organizing and researching the information in order to write a cohesive dissertation usually helps the writer understand the subject even better.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I think its for the same reasons Im not writing or thinking of writing a novel or short story based around the crimes...committing to doing the required research myself. And I also freely admit its very difficult for me to remain impartial with all aspects of the known data in these cases. Plus....Im no writer.

Im more about the free form general discussion of ideas, rather than just pitching my own perspective...yes, I do try and be persuasive in my arguments and have data that can corroborate a fixed opinion, but I see the discussions as the source of the pleasure I get from the study.

I think if I was to dive in head first and become a contributor to data available, it wouldnt be on a topic that has 120 years of investigation behind it without answers. Better men than me have already had a go.

Cheers Tom.

[Malcolm X]

writing a book/ long essay is very hard indeed, but you do learn far more about the suspect, i wrote Sweeney Todd but it took 2 years...lost everything when my PC crashed...i did have my own website

i would love to do a book on HUTCH, but it means dropping all my other interests, especially PC gaming ...far too time consuming with work as well.

[DVV]

I need to mark this day down on my calendar.

The Day of Agreement.
Socialists welcome.
But no trainers.

[perrymason]

Just to explore Israel's conspicuous absence from the Inquest...even as a entered report without the witness having to appear...if they thought he lied, changing his name to "John" later on might not be a bad idea.

This might be one witness that would'nt want attention afterwards.

Best regards all.

[The Good Michael]

Michael,

To think that it is always mentioned that Hutchinson was discredited, but Schwartz never even had to appear! I smell a rat.

Cheers,

Mike

[perrymason]

Michael,

To think that it is always mentioned that Hutchinson was discredited, but Schwartz never even had to appear! I smell a rat.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike...nice to chat directly.

Not sure if you're baiting me with the above, but if not, thats just about the way its beginning to look to me. With George its always possible he didnt wait specifically for the Inquest to close that day...in fact Im sure many were surprised, considering the victims state, that it was only one day. So we only have their lack of support for it within 72 hours to go by. We dont know he intentionally dodged the Inquest.

But.. whats the deal here with Israel...his story is recounted by a credible source, its before the Inquest has taken place, and he brings an altercation with the victim just before her death almost on the murder spot, into the frame.

Not even a mention of his story, nor any indication the police supressed it.

Then Wess of all people is the first witness called at the Inquest. Wess? He left the scene 45 minutes or more before the incident occurs. Why not Diemshutz...he finds her. Or PC Smith or James Brown first?

I think Wess not Diemshutz holds the power there for one, and we have good reason to believe Wess translated for Goldstein...as per TW. Maybe also Schwartz.

In some ways this appears to be a case that suggested the Club strongly, but without physical evidence to confirm it...witness evidence holds sway. Wess may have been the words of 2 witnesses who both give club favorable accounts...offsite thug, and nothing seen when walking past the gates at 12:55am. Then he opens the Inquest.

Were the police sort of publicly trying the Club? They couldnt blame them outright without evidence, bad politics....but they could put the case in front of an Inquest Jury and have the leading club authority be the one responsible to speak first. Without the witness whose story is responsible for the introduction of an off site thug meeting the victim...outside the yard. Because they felt he was biased? Or Wess was..who may have translated?

Just putting down thoughts to see if any make sense. And the above doesnt jive with the almost unanimous Police opinion that Liz Stride was killed by the Ripper.....unless they were exploring whether the Ripper came from inside the yard or the club.

All the best Mike.

[Roy Corduroy]

Likely Israel Schwartz didn't testify because his account contained the cry of "Lipski" so the authorities kept that out of the inquest. For obvious reasons.

That's not my own idea, it's Phil Sugden's.

Roy

[Ben]

So we only have their lack of support for it within 72 hours to go by. We dont know he intentionally dodged the Inquest.

...Which wouldn't explain why he didn't come forward as soon as he learned of the murder, Mike.

But, y'know, back to Schwartz!

All the best,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Id agree with you Ben, it doesnt explain his delay at all. Nor do we know why Goldstein doesnt show up until Tuesday night to explain himself.

Roy, on that rationale for leaving Israel out of the Inquest....I myself cannot buy that police would not just repress some remarks of his while on the stand if that was the case, and I cannot believe that they would completely omit a statement that suggests the victim was seen being accosted just before being found murdered. Certainly the manner of Liz Strides murder offers the possibility that anyone with a knife could have caused her wound...unlike Annies for example.

I think the data that we all know suggests that the Police didnt believe his story....there is no other reason I can think of to omit it entirely from the statements given at Inquest.

If they believe he lied....did they believe that was due to an allegiance of some kind to the Socialist Jews at The International Club? His story was the only one that suggested directly that a Club man was likely not involved.

No other witness saw Liz with a man that could not have come from the Club.

Best regards