The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[cappuccina]

Thank you Perry/Michael, you are correct...

Westcott....you're a presumptuous a$$ as usual... but we already knew that...

Why should anyone take you, someone whose main claim to fame is his leading roles in horror films made in the tiki-themed depths of Wayne and Garth's basement, any more seriously than anyone else here...and how do you know what research I have or have not done on this case...you don't live in my house, do you? Jesus Christ, I hope not!

[Tom_Wescott]

Cappucinna,

Presumptuous is assuming someone else is wrong in their research simply because you can point to someone in your family who doesn't fit the details being discussed. That's also sophomoric. Why should someone take me seriously? Maybe because I've spent a lot of money on research materials concerning the IWEC and have read every newspaper report on the Casebook (and anywhere else I can find) regarding them and their activities. I own copies of the Worker's Friend.

In other words, I've spent the time and money and made the sacrifice so that I don't HAVE to be the presumptuous ass on a thread like this who disrupts the flow of conversation by always having to be corrected and coralled. Lord knows I don't know everything, or anywhere near what I'd LIKE to know, but I've learned a thing or two.

How do I know you haven't done your research? Because you think your 2nd cousin twice removed has f*ck all to do with a socialist club on Berner Street in the LVP.

I hope I've answered all your questions. If not, feel free to PM me. Next time you want to call me wrong and not look like a retard, please make sure I AM wrong and then show me how. Thanks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[cappuccina]

...LOL...what a trip!

[perrymason]

Since we now know that Toms taking offense was misplaced and that no offense was intended...just a pointer on broadly characterizing Socialist Jews in general...

My question on which Holiday is as Caps suggests....would this Holiday have been one of the High Holidays...the most scared days of the year?

Most people who call themselves any Christian religion dont practice their faith on a daily basis.....just a few days a year. Im raised Roman Catholic, went to church Sundays, Wednesdays and Friday nights until I was around 10.

Im much more spiritual a person than I was then, but I only enter a church for Christmas Mass, Easter, and weddings or funerals.

Best regards

[Mr.Hyde]

Just to appease my curiosity.....was the Holiday held on the Evening before the Double Event one of the very Holiest of days in Judaism?

Best regards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippor

Doubt JTR was Jewish.Jewish looking,yes.

[cappuccina]

Here are the Hebrew calendars with observances for 5648 and 5649:

Here are combined Hebrew-Gregorian calendars. The first (upper) number in each cell is the day in a Hebrew month, and the second (lower) one is the day in a Gregorian month. The colored days are Jewish holidays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5648_(Hebrew_year)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5649_(Hebrew_year)

I do not know why these do not come up correctly...I am trying to fix...

[cappuccina]

...I'm thinking Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur??

Even a lot of non-practicing Jews, like myself (I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian/Jewish combo...LOL) will have a New Year's dinner, or something like that, and will fast on Yom Kippur...

[perrymason]

...I'm thinking Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur??

Thanks caps and David....that was his link on the question as well.

My point was regarding all this, that is there anything other than the Socialist Meeting itself that might have taken place at the Club...for members that observed only the highest holidays of their faith, despite the requirement that they abandon all connection with it as Tom suggested?

Might some very significant holy days....like Christmas and Easter for Christians, be celebrated by Socialist Jews?

My guess would be...if any were to be celebrated, they would be the very few truly spiritual days of their religion.

Im wondering why Schwartz was actually there at all.

His wife had surely completed moving their clothes long before 12:45am....its not like he would have had dressers and tables to move.

Thanks and best regards Caps and David

[cappuccina]

Yes, that was what I was trying to say, that Yom Kippur might fall into that category...


From: http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm


"...Yom Kippur is probably the most important holiday of the Jewish year. Many Jews who do not observe any other Jewish custom will refrain from work, fast and/or attend synagogue services on this day. Yom Kippur occurs on the 10th day of Tishri. The holiday is instituted at Leviticus 23:26 et seq.

The name "Yom Kippur" means "Day of Atonement," and that pretty much explains what the holiday is. It is a day set aside to "afflict the soul," to atone for the sins of the past year. In Days of Awe, I mentioned the "books" in which G-d inscribes all of our names. On Yom Kippur, the judgment entered in these books is sealed. This day is, essentially, your last appeal, your last chance to change the judgment, to demonstrate your repentance and make amends.

As I noted in Days of Awe, Yom Kippur atones only for sins between man and G-d, not for sins against another person. To atone for sins against another person, you must first seek reconciliation with that person, righting the wrongs you committed against them if possible. That must all be done before Yom Kippur...."


(It is the ONLY Jewish holiday my husband ALWAYS celebrates; he is from a mixed Jewish and Christian background, like me...)

I really like where you are going with your thinking on this, Michael/Perry...

[DVV]

Hi Cappuccina,
I really don't know understand why we are now dealing with the Hebrew calendar.
Club members were Jews but they were not religious.
They were even against their religion.
This is a well known phenomenon, from Marx to Chomsky.
I can't believe this is challenged here.
Tom Wescott is right.
Nothing new, as you said, so what?

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

I really don't know understand why I used two verbs in the above post.
I think guess it's because I'm high irie.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

David, I dont think Caps needed chastising for the exploration of my question. Since Marx died in 1883...I dont think his doctrines should be considered broadly accepted by 1888 either.

As I suggested, we are not talking about practicing Jews....more like ones that were raised by parents of that faith and with ingrained connections to certain days that are most holy in that religion. As I said, Im no longer a Roman Catholic...havent been a practicing one in 40 years...but I do go to a Roman Catholic church at least 2 days of every year.

This Ripper night is without question the only night where Jews are the most important witnesses...at both sites. This was also Yom Kippur apparently....the day of Atonement, as Caps points out very significant to Jewish people...in fact its possible Liz helped serve dinner at the Jewish home she did some work in before we see her out that night.

The word Jew can only be used to describe ethnicity or faith..so how would you and Tom reconcile the term Socialist Jew in print in 1888? I think what we have here is a gentile perception of how Jews behave...all devout or not at all....but what of infrequent flyers?...like my Catholicism.

Schwartz started this line of questioning for me....he is a Jew, we dont know if he is Socialist or not...or a club member...but he is out at 12:45am...it is Yom Kippur apparently, and we see him walking by a Socialist Jew Mens Club with members still in attendance singing after a meeting and speech by Eagle, "Why Jews should be Socialists"....and his explanation is that he was going to his home that his wife moved from since noon Saturday to see if she was finished. The new digs are within a few blocks, and all she had to move would be some personal effects and clothes. He left around noon Saturday, and its almost 13 hours later, and after midnight....and he is checking the old location..first. The story sucks.

So Im trying to look for a reason for him to be where he said he was that is not likely a falsehood...which I believe the translated story of his reason for being there is.

A male Jew outside a Socialist Jewish Mens Club, after a Socialist meeting on Yom Kippur, at almost 1am, with some 28 men still in the club....oblivious to his wifes whereabouts after giving her 13 hours to move clothes to a new address not near 40 Berner Street, .... seems to invite some scrutiny dont you think?

Best regards.

[Supe]

Tom is quite right and once again people are falling into the trap of applying modern, personal experiences to historic fact. The members of the Club were most assuredly Jews by birth if not practice, hence "Socialist Jews" which really equated to being both "Socialists and atheists." What pangs of religiosity some few members may occasionally have had was between themselves and their conscience. But publicly, what they considered a bourgeios concent--religion of any kind--was ever deprecated. The notion that "religion is the opiate of the masses" was a hallmark of Socialism (and later Marxism) and religion was considered a major enemy on the path to a Socialist utopia.

[The Good Michael]

The things that Tom and Don are saying are a big component of why the Berner Street Club may have things to answer for regarding Stride's death. While socialist and anarchistic activity was understandable and perhaps necessary for the time and place, there may have been other, more nefarious goings-on than the simple spread of ideology via pamphleteering and club meetings. Actually for me that particular evening when Stride met her demise is absolutely fascinating. Did Schwartz have an agenda? Was he a member of the club? Was he hired to make a statement? Many cool questions arise that we don't see with any of the other victims.

Cheers,

Mike

[Roy Corduroy]

Sept 30

Yes, that was what I was trying to say, that Yom Kippur might fall into that category...

"...Yom Kippur is probably the most important holiday of the Jewish year. Many Jews who do not observe any other Jewish custom will refrain from work, fast and/or attend synagogue services on this day. Yom Kippur occurs on the 10th day of Tishri.

The name "Yom Kippur" means "Day of Atonement," and that pretty much explains what the holiday is.

cappucina, thank you. I note you specify the 10th day of Tishri.

On another thread I shared a quote about Jewish holy days and the days of murder -(click here) from Chaim Bermant's London's East End: point of arrival and continuing now on page 119:

"The fourth and firth murders took place in the early hours of 30 September, well beyond the cycle of the Solemn Days, and on the 25th of Tishri, one of the few days in the holiest of Jewish months to be devoid of any religious significance whatever."

This is confirmed by the 1888 Calendar - (click here)

So Perry, there must have been some miscommunicaton. Sept 30 was not Yom Kippur.

Roy