The Identity of Israel Schwartz

[Sam Flynn]

Taken over from another thread - thought it better to start a new one dedicated to tracking down our elusive witness.

I can't recall anyone pinning down Israel Schwartz in the Census, but I have strong reason to believe that this is because he dropped the name "Israel" in favour of "John" shortly after 1888 - if I have found the right man, that is.

A certain "J Schwartz", hairdresser (born Buda Pesht) was living at Saffron Hill, City of London, in 1891, with his wife Emilie. By 1901, "John Schwartz", still a hairdresser, "Emily" and their children are living at 218 Kingsland Road, Dalston - oddly enough, barely a stone's throw away from where Joseph Lawende lived in 1888.

For the conspiricists amongst you - if this is the same Schwartz, and I believe it is, did he change his name simply to become more Anglophone, or was it perhaps because he didn't want "any trouble"?

Of course, there's also a Polish-born Israel Schwartz who lived in the neighbourhood of Berner Street, of whose family Gavin Bromley gave some details in his dissertation, "Mrs Kuer's Lodger".

Obviously "John Schwartz" has the advantage of being Hungarian by birth. I'd be curious to know whether there are other reasons to prefer him to the alternative candidate.

Hi Chris,

Of course, there's also a Polish-born Israel Schwartz who lived in the neighbourhood of Berner Street, of whose family Gavin Bromley gave some details in his dissertation, "Mrs Kuer's Lodger".

Blimey - I had quite forgotten. I note that Gavin gives me a mention for suggesting that Israel's "theatrical appearance" might fit with "J Schwartz's" tonsorial occupation (thanks, Gavin!). I was about to (re)suggest his occupation as a possible pointer that he might be our man.

The lodger Schwartz was described as a tailor's presser - an occupation which might, initially, seem to chime with the description of being "in the theatrical line". However, one remembers that the East End had large numbers of journeyman tailors in the sweatshops, working long hours in cramped conditions, and earning very poor wages. As a mere "presser" in 1891, this Schwartz may not even have earned the wages of a sweated tailor. On balance, I find it unlikely that such a person could have come across as a dandy in 1888.

Then there's his name, which wasn't "Israel", but "John". Bearing in mind that hairdresser Schwartz would certainly not have been called "John" when he left Budapest, it's safe to assume that the jettisoning of his original name happened somewhere along the line.

Finally, there's the poor English issue. Whereas witnesses in the Lipski trial, indeed Lipski himself, had been resident in England for over a year, they needed interpreters as their English was so bad. Hardly surprising, if they moved in predominantly "ghettoized" areas of London, where Yiddish, Polish or Russian would have served them well. However, although the lodger Schwartz was a reasonably recent immigrant, we have no information of when he settled in England.

In terms of the hairdresser and his wife "Emilie" Schwartz, however, there's a possibility I've found in the "Indirect" Hamburg Passenger Lists. Sailing from Hamburg - to who knows where? - on 16th September 1887, we find:



...Yacuba and Malka Schwarz. Yacuba, or "Jacob", is practically interchangeable with "Israel" amongst Hebrew names, and whilst "Malka" is an unusual enough name in itself, in the form of "Amelie" or "Emilie" it seems to have been a reasonably common Anglicisation amongst Jewish emigrees to the Western World.

[Sam Flynn]

I should add that, whilst I can't be certain that Yacuba/Malka Schwarz became the parents of the "Saffron Hill Mob" by 1891, I'm comfortable with the "Malka → Amelie/Emilie" translation, as I am with the "Yacuba → Israel" transformation, with its famous Biblical precedent. If so, then there's a chance that Yacuba Schwarz might have been the same as Israel (later John) Schwartz and, that being the case, he and his wife would have been in London for almost exactly a year when he was interviewed by press and police. A year would have offered precious little time for him to have picked up much useful English, if known precedents are anything to go by. Being an Hungarian Jew (a minority within a minority) might not have helped in that regard either.

[Stephen Thomas]

Yacuba, or "Jacob", is practically interchangeable with "Israel" amongst Hebrew names.

Maybe for a split second he thought of calling himself Jack.

[Chris]

In terms of the hairdresser and his wife "Emilie" Schwartz, however, there's a possibility I've found in the "Indirect" Hamburg Passenger Lists. Sailing from Hamburg - to who knows where? - on 16th September 1887, we find:
...
...Yacuba and Malka Schwarz. Yacuba, or "Jacob", is practically interchangeable with "Israel" amongst Hebrew names, and whilst "Malka" is an unusual enough name in itself, in the form of "Amelie" or "Emilie" it seems to have been a reasonably common Anglicisation amongst Jewish emigrees to the Western World.

Thanks for this - very interesting.

After a little browse, I think you're right about Millie/Millicent/Amelia/Emily being the usual anglicised version of Malka, though evidently Matilda and Muriel were also possible.

The transition between Israel and Jacob isn't one I've come across - though as you say there is a biblical precedent for it.

It would certainly be nice to identify the witness, even if no further useful information flowed from the identification.

[perrymason]

We believe that the Schwartz we are concerned about was Hungarian, so "Buda Pescht" makes sense. Tom discussed with me once that he believed Wess acted as Goldstein's interpreter, and may have done so with Schwartz and his statement.

Which is interesting to me. Neither played any substantial role in the official proceedings, Schwartz had no overt role at all. Due in part to the reliability of accurate translations?...not citing Wess as one to worry about, just wondering.

Changing his name to John though is priceless really, if the same man. The first fully Hebrew yet generic suspect/witness, John Doe Schwartz.

All the best Gareth...thanks for the info.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Strange that, Schwartz being described as theatrical, a relative of Tony Curtis no doubt. Just had look at Tony Curtis on WIk, born in NY of Hugarian Jewish parents from Mátészalka, Szatmár. His mother and brother were schizophrenic, his father was a tailor, and of course he played the Boston strangler.

all the best

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom discussed with me once that he believed Wess acted as Goldstein's interpreter, and may have done so with Schwartz and his statement.

Actually, we know that William Wess accompanied Leon Goldstein to the police and acted as interpreter. Where I speculate is that Schwartz was a member of the IWEC and might also have been accompanied to the police station by Wess. It's a very reasonable suggestion but one that thus far lacks proof.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Where I speculate is that Schwartz was a member of the IWEC and might also have been accompanied to the police station by Wess. It's a very reasonable suggestion.

Indeed it is, Tom - although, if Schwartz really was from Budapest, there is a likelihood that he belonged to a class of Jew which actively despised Polish and Lithuanian Jews (Wess being Lithuanian, of course). From the mid-19th Century onwards, tensions between the two "castes" seems to have been worse than those between Jews and non-Jews. (For more info, check out "Jewish Budapest", by Kinga Frojimovics et al on Google books.) On that basis, whether the predominantly Polish emigrant fraternity of the IWEC, or indeed the majority Polish/Jewish community of the East End as a whole, would have been offered a welcome haven for a Western Hungarian Jew to hang out is a moot point.

Apart from the snobbery of the Western Hungarian Jews towards the Poles and Litvaks, they tended to be more Austro/German in their linguistic and cultural leanings, although Yiddish was used. A slightly different form of Yiddish to that with which Wess would have been familiar, but only by matter of degree.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Sam. However, I think you're painting with that broad brush again as you sometimes do when it comes to Jews. History might eventually say that all white Americans hated black Americans in the 1950's and will point to our Jim Crow laws, etc. However, we know that was nowhere near the case. But let's for a moment imagine we took a white American circa 1950, who actually DID NOT care for blacks, the way you say Budapest Jews despised their co-religionists. Let's say we took this white man and dropped him in a city where the natives didn't speak his tongue, but he happened to live on the same small street as a club full of people speaking his language, and of similar customs, although many of the members were black. Don't you think the race of these men would not matter so much when faced with the alternative?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Tom,

Not painting with a broad brush, so much as pointing out something which could have a significant bearing on the matter. Although I agree with you fully that we shouldn't entertain the possibility of exceptions, that doesn't mean that we should dismiss the general rule.

[Tom_Wescott]

When we know for a fact where Schwartz came from, we can then start applying 'general rules'. What we do know is that he lived on Berner Street, presumably on the same side of the street that the club was on, and that he was not apparently an hassidic Jew as he left the impression on the reporter as someone in the 'threatrical' trade, and of course there was only one spot on Berner Street where one could find Jews performing.

What if you were to learn of another Hungarian Jew frequenting the club?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Who could that be Tom?

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz

Hi Sam, Hi all
If i may , i would like to ask what is probably a stupid question.
Why would Yacuba Schwartz/ Israel Schwartz change his name to John Schwartz?
Why not change his name to John smith or even John tailor? I just don`t understand if he was trying to Anglicize his name or seek anonimity, he should keep a very Hebrew surname when it surely wasn`t that difficult to change all his name.

Keep Well
Jimi

[Sam Flynn]

When we know for a fact where Schwartz came from, we can then start applying 'general rules'.

I qualified my suggestion with an "if" in the first place, Tom. We do know, within reason, that Schwartz came from Hungary - and I've ID'ed a potential match from Budapest. Nothing more, nothing less. There's no need to jettison your interesting speculation that Schwartz was an IWEC member - although it could be a factor to bear in mind, which is all I said.

What if you were to learn of another Hungarian Jew frequenting the club?

Then I'd be interested to know whether he was a Western Hungarian or Eastern Hungarian - because apparently they didn't get on too well.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jimi,

Why would Yacuba Schwartz/ Israel Schwartz change his name to John Schwartz? Why not change his name to John smith or even John tailor?

Indeed - but then why change Yisroel/Jokanaan/Yeshua/Yakob/Yov to "John" and leave the "Schwartz" intact? Who knows?