Descriptions.

[GBinOz]

There are a bunch of witnesses I consider solid witnesses but who I think might be irrelevant. All of the Berner Street witnesses before Schwartz, for instance. Possibly Long. I haven't figured out the Dorset Street crowd, but I'm pretty sure the woman Maurice Lewis was talking about wasn't MJK. The ones I put more faith in (recognizing it may be misplaced) are Lawende (both the Met and City Police appear to have liked him), Schwartz (in spite of the fact all investigators forgot he existed by Dec. 1888), Brown (in spite of how modern writers have totally f-d up their handling of his evidence), and possibly some of the non-murder witnesses who survived an assault in the area around that time. Might be something in those. I feel like I'm forgetting someone.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Any thoughts on Mrs Maxwell Tom?

[Tom_Wescott]

Any thoughts on Mrs Maxwell Tom?

As a general rule, I believe nothing from the mouths of lodging house keepers. I have no idea if had confused Catherine Pickett or someone else for Kelly, had the day wrong, or was lying. But she did not see Kelly in the broad daylight on the 9th. That didn't happen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GBinOz]

We all know that Cadosche heard Chapman hitting the fence.

So what was Jack doing with Chapman in the four or so minutes between her cry of "No" and her hitting the fence? Were I inclined to believe that a murder was in progress I would suggest that it was Jack bumping the fence in an attempt at concealing himself from Cadosch returning from his second trip to the Loo.

[Tom_Wescott]

So what was Jack doing with Chapman in the four or so minutes between her cry of "No" and her hitting the fence? Were I inclined to believe that a murder was in progress I would suggest that it was Jack bumping the fence in an attempt at concealing himself from Cadosch returning from his second trip to the Loo.

He was robbing her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[New Waterloo]

I dont think anyone would like this but because the thread is about descriptions it needs to be said. The so called Pensioner Ted Stanley often changed his appearance and used a different name (according to some). Sometimes the appearance of a Dock labourer sometimes Shabby gentile. Sometimes the appearance of a soldier. (Upright) Often used the surname Wand.

Even if he is not JTR (probably not) it does show how clothes worn when seen by witnesses shape our views of who the person is. I mean the type of person. As they say ‘clothes maketh the man’

NW

[New Waterloo]

Sorry should ref shabby genteel.

[GBinOz]

He was robbing her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Am I reading your analyse correctly...that Jack was robbing her for about four minutes while she was still upright, and then he proceeded to throw her down against the fence and cut her throat?

[Abby Normal]

As a general rule, I believe nothing from the mouths of lodging house keepers. I have no idea if had confused Catherine Pickett or someone else for Kelly, had the day wrong, or was lying. But she did not see Kelly in the broad daylight on the 9th. That didn't happen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

totally agree with this. i think maxwell probably saw someone who she thought was mary kelly. All the evidence points to a approx 4 am murder. and yes something not right about the dorset crowd. ive long held that dorset street scene holds the key to the mystery. Alot points to mary and her killer knowing each other- The inside murder. the key. Mary not known for usually bringing clients there. very recent break up with barnett.the singing to blotchy. hutchs dubious story that includes his stalking like behavior. lewis and the bethnal green botherer. was it barnett or someone he knew?was it Blotchy, hutch or even the bethnal green botherer? i think theres a good chance it was one of these characters.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Mary was allegedly well behind with her rent. But it was certainly rent day, that much we do know with Bowyer knocking on Mary's door. People would have done moon-lit flits back then much as today, perhaps more so with so very few possessions. Caroline Maxwell's husband was the deputy lodging house keeper of Crossingham's. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that Henry Maxwell was paid a few shillings/pence extra [ by McCarthy ], to keep an eye out on the court to make sure no one scarpered before payday so to speak, and he was potentially the man seen at 2: 30 am by Sarah Lewis ? " The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one ".

If he was deemed to have failed in this job and also not spot the ripper, could he have feared recriminations ? Perhaps losing his deputy position especially if McCarthy had some sway? But if Jack had murdered Mary early in the morning after he had finished his shift then no blame for unpaid rent arrears/missing the ripper/McCarthy losing a client [ especially if he was fond of her ], could be attached to him.

Maybe this is why Caroline lied [ if indeed she did ].

Regards Darryl

[Duran duren]

So what was Jack doing with Chapman in the four or so minutes between her cry of "No" and her hitting the fence? Were I inclined to believe that a murder was in progress I would suggest that it was Jack bumping the fence in an attempt at concealing himself from Cadosch returning from his second trip to the Loo.

George, in your opinion, how tall do you think that fence was? I go with less than 5'5".

[Herlock Sholmes]

There’s no issue with there being a gap between the “no” and the sound against the fence unless we make the assumption that the sound was made by the body falling against the fence but it might not have been that. It could have been the killer brushing against the fence as he was mutilating the corpse and perhaps changing his position.

[Duran duren]

Agreed HS

[rjpalmer]

The Forman: How high are the palings?

Cadoche: About 5 ft. 6 in. to 6 feet.

--Daily Telegraph 20 September 1888.

We don't know how tall Cadoche was, but his son's military records survive and Cadoche Jr. was only 5' 3 1/2" tall.

If his father was a towering 5' 2" (which is certainly possible) how is he going to see a tall man in the next yard unless the man was stupid enough to have been standing directly against the fence and peeking over?

With the fence being taller than the level of Cadoche's eyes--perhaps substantially so--he would be looking into the next yard at an upward angle and wouldn't have been able to see much, if anything. The distant skyline.

Le Grand of the Strand is not exonerated.

[Duran duren]

I was asking because if you are standing in the doorway at 27, you would be looking down...not sure how that would look if you are only 5'2" though

[rjpalmer]

I was asking because if you are standing in the doorway at 27, you would be looking down...not sure how that would look if you are only 5'2" though

It's a legitimate question, but it *looks* like the back door of No. 27 swung to the right (this is how Gavin Bromley had it in his article in Ripperologist, but it's not certain that this was the case).

If so, when Cadoche was at his best advantage--stepping out onto the porch--his view might have been restricted by the door blocking his view to the right. The outhouse is in the opposite corner of the yard, so he may have only had a peripheral view of the fence as he walked diagonally away from the house.

Here is Bromley's diagram of the scene:




I think the killer would have been more at risk during Cadoche's return to the house, but by that time he might well have been aware that someone was in the next yard.

P.S. There is an aerial view of the two yards in Bromley's article, but I personally can't see how the door of No. 27 opens.

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Cadosch – The Other Side of the Fence